Indefinite EFC

P

Pilot Hopeful

Well-Known Member
Yesterday, we heard ATC issue holding instructions to several international departures because the oceanic computer system was down. What was unusual about the holding clearance is that the controller issued an "indefinite EFC."

Is such a clearance valid? We were under the impression that a hard EFC time is necessary, particularly in the event of lost communications.
 
Yes, the phraseology "delay indefinite due to xxx" in holding instructions is valid. It is meant to serve as a cue to the pilot to state their intentions to either continue holding based on the circumstances, or to divert.

We are to issue a hard EFC as soon as conditions permit.
 
I've gotten an indefinite EFC once when I was holding because there was a huge huge cell over the airport. If they gave me a hard EFC time, thinking they would push back the EFC time if the storm didn't move then what if I lost comms and started flying towards the approach at my EFC time and the cells were still there? Its for that sort of thing. Stuff where ATC can't easily predict the time frame.
 
Flew by DEN two nights ago and everyone was getting that. A couple of crews questioned it, most proceeded to their alternates.
 
SpiraMirabilis said:
If they gave me a hard EFC time, thinking they would push back the EFC time if the storm didn't move then what if I lost comms and started flying towards the approach at my EFC time and the cells were still there?
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So when do you depart the holding fix when IMC and you lose comms with an indefinite EFC?

For kicks, everywhere is down to minimums (not in the forecast) including your alternate.

-mini
 
minitour said:
So when do you depart the holding fix when IMC and you lose comms with an indefinite EFC?
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I'd say this falls into the "closest to your ETA" category. Since you should have been advised why the EFC was indefinite, it becomes a judgement call if a landing at the airport you're holding for is prudent or not.

For kicks, everywhere is down to minimums (not in the forecast) including your alternate.

-mini
Click to expand...

Go where ever the weather is marginally best, and shoot an approach. Just because we can't talk to you doesn't mean we can stop separating traffic from you. Whomever can we talk to will get moved out of the way.
 
Barty said:
Yes, the phraseology "delay indefinite due to xxx" in holding instructions is valid. It is meant to serve as a cue to the pilot to state their intentions to either continue holding based on the circumstances, or to divert.

We are to issue a hard EFC as soon as conditions permit.
Click to expand...

I don't issue a lot of holding instructions, but in reviewing the chapter of the .65 on holding, it says an EFC is still given when using the "indefinite delay" verbiage:

4-6-1 Holding Aircraft

2. When holding is necessary, the phrase “delay
indefinite” should be used when an accurate estimate of the
delay time and the reason for the delay cannot immediately
be determined; i.e., disabled aircraft on the runway,
terminal or center sector saturation, weather below
landing minimums, etc. In any event, every attempt should
be made to provide the pilot with the best possible estimate
of his/her delay time and the reason for the delay.
Controllers/supervisors should consult, as appropriate,
with personnel (other sectors, weather forecasters, the
airport management, other facilities, etc.) who can best
provide this information.

PHRASEOLOGY
DELAY INDEFINITE, (reason if known), EXPECT
FURTHER CLEARANCE (time). (After determining the
reason for the delay, advise the pilot as soon as possible.)


EXAMPLE-
“Cleared to Wally, hold north, as published, delay
indefinite, snow removal in progress, expect further
clearance one one three zero.”
 
an EFC is based on the "best guess" of the controller.

if a plane crashes at the airport, you obviously go into holding. am i to know how long it'll take to clean up the wreckage? or allow landing on an adjacent runway at the same airport?

"delay indefinite" is usually based on something that ATC cannot control. either weather, aircraft incident, etc. my guess is just a guess. or it could be a time that i will update you with the real time...or another guess.

again...ATC cannot predict weather, NAVAID outages, etc. it's an EFC usually because it's an "expected" time. not a "you can expect" it time.

if u go NORDO then follow the procedures outlined. but an EFC has nothing to do with a possible contingency plan. it's a heads up.
 
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