IMC and not on a flight plan

avi8tor1983

avi8tor1983

Well-Known Member
So I'm flying my route tonight. I was IMC most of the trip. I was at 6,000 and tops were reported at 10,000. I'm on a 220 heading.

Ok this is where it gets interesting. Center calls traffic 12 oclock se altitude opposite direction. Unverified! I reply "curently IMC, and he must be too!". Center calls me to start a right turn to 360 and go down to 5,000. I do just that. Center is still calling the traffic until I clear them. I told center that the other aircraft must of been IMC. Center says that's what we were afraid of. I switch freqs and nothing else happens.

Now really far be it from me to rat on another pilot but this way straight up dumb! Wrong altitude for the heading and the guy is IMC not on a flight plan or talking to center. Question for you controlers. Do you track the idiot? Is there any way for you to find out who that was?
 
avi8tor1983 said:
So I'm flying my route tonight. I was IMC most of the trip. I was at 6,000 and tops were reported at 10,000. I'm on a 220 heading.

Ok this is where it gets interesting. Center calls traffic 12 oclock se altitude opposite direction. Unverified! I reply "curently IMC, and he must be too!". Center calls me to start a right turn to 360 and go down to 5,000. I do just that. Center is still calling the traffic until I clear them. I told center that the other aircraft must of been IMC. Center says that's what we were afraid of. I switch freqs and nothing else happens.

Now really far be it from me to rat on another pilot but this way straight up dumb! Wrong altitude for the heading and the guy is IMC not on a flight plan or talking to center. Question for you controlers. Do you track the idiot? Is there any way for you to find out who that was?
Click to expand...

Keep in mind, it could be someone who's lower or higher in VMC and with a malfunctioning transponder. Rare, but a possibility, since it happened to me once just this way.
 
avi8tor1983 said:
So I'm flying my route tonight. I was IMC most of the trip. I was at 6,000 and tops were reported at 10,000. I'm on a 220 heading.

Ok this is where it gets interesting. Center calls traffic 12 oclock se altitude opposite direction. Unverified! I reply "curently IMC, and he must be too!". Center calls me to start a right turn to 360 and go down to 5,000. I do just that. Center is still calling the traffic until I clear them. I told center that the other aircraft must of been IMC. Center says that's what we were afraid of. I switch freqs and nothing else happens.

Now really far be it from me to rat on another pilot but this way straight up dumb! Wrong altitude for the heading and the guy is IMC not on a flight plan or talking to center. Question for you controlers. Do you track the idiot? Is there any way for you to find out who that was?
Click to expand...
 
avi8tor1983 said:
Ok this is where it gets interesting. Center calls traffic 12 oclock se altitude opposite direction. Unverified! I reply "curently IMC, and he must be too!". Center calls me to start a right turn to 360 and go down to 5,000. I do just that. Center is still calling the traffic until I clear them. I told center that the other aircraft must of been IMC. Center says that's what we were afraid of. I switch freqs and nothing else happens.
Click to expand...

Unverified is the key word here. I've seen altitude encoding transponders be off by as much as 2000'.
 
We have had this discussion a few times. As controllers, no generally we don't track those guys for a couple reasons. 1. We're not aviation police our job is to prevent collision and organize and expedite the flow of traffic. 2. like it was said since the altitude was unverified there is no way of knowing if that aircraft was truly VFR in IMC.

I have seen transponders on the ground (~100 msl) registering 10,500. A seriously malfunctioning transponder could be the explanation. Additionally occasionally the digital radar will depict "false targets" IE targets that are 30-40 miles away and duplicates them on another portion of the scope. Although I don't know if the enroute mosiac radar does this as well.
 
It is totally possible that the transponder was malfunctioning, I (like another controller said) have seen the altitude off by thousands of feet, just this one was off by 28-30k, yes, thirty thousand feet.
 
boondr said:
I have seen transponders on the ground (~100 msl) registering 10,500. A seriously malfunctioning transponder could be the explanation. Additionally occasionally the digital radar will depict "false targets" IE targets that are 30-40 miles away and duplicates them on another portion of the scope. Although I don't know if the enroute mosiac radar does this as well.
Click to expand...

Not sure how different radar is in the military, but on the few occasions I got a chance to sit behind the scope, false targets were fairly common. When chaff was being dropped from the F-15's, there were bogus returns all over the place (duh...).

I've seen myself show up quite a few times on the TIS several miles from my position - the TRACON's radar isn't perfect either...
 
By the way, it's totally legal (maybe not smart) to be IMC and not on a flight plan if you're operating in Class G airspace, which I suppose is possible in remote areas of the country off airways. ATC has no control responsibility or authority in uncontrolled airspace.
 
Ok. Thanks for the insight. I know there was a lot of traffic trying to go vfr that night. Now I know that there might not of been anyone there. And I know about the class G. But I was in E airspace.
 
germb747 said:
By the way, it's totally legal (maybe not smart) to be IMC and not on a flight plan if you're operating in Class G airspace, which I suppose is possible in remote areas of the country off airways. ATC has no control responsibility or authority in uncontrolled airspace.
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Well considring the Center was providing IFR service and radar advisories I doubt it was class G
 
avi8tor1983 said:
So I'm flying my route tonight. I was IMC most of the trip. I was at 6,000 and tops were reported at 10,000. I'm on a 220 heading.

Ok this is where it gets interesting. Center calls traffic 12 oclock se altitude opposite direction. Unverified! I reply "curently IMC, and he must be too!". Center calls me to start a right turn to 360 and go down to 5,000. I do just that. Center is still calling the traffic until I clear them. I told center that the other aircraft must of been IMC. Center says that's what we were afraid of. I switch freqs and nothing else happens.

Now really far be it from me to rat on another pilot but this way straight up dumb! Wrong altitude for the heading and the guy is IMC not on a flight plan or talking to center. Question for you controlers. Do you track the idiot? Is there any way for you to find out who that was?
Click to expand...

He wasn't IMC, he was Carribean VMC :) It is very common down here for guys to do this, it is called "Carribean VFR". No one really rats anyone out though. But I don't think you were telling on him, you just were really wondering where this guy was at!
 
just cause you're imc doesnt mean the traffic is also. Remember, the proper phrase is "negative contact." Not "Im IMC."
 
I usually say "we're lookin, but IMC."

Or "...in and out" or something like that so ATC knows there's a decent chance I'm not going to find him.

-mini
 
cmill said:
just cause you're imc doesnt mean the traffic is also. Remember, the proper phrase is "negative contact." Not "Im IMC."
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To me, on the other side of the mic, they both get the point across and "IMC" tells me there is an unlikely chance of getting the traffic. "Negative Contact" leaves something out in the sense that I don't know there is virtually no chance of you picking up the traffic.
 
I prefer the phraseology "Got 'im on the fishfinder good buddy, 10-4 over. No joy!"
 
dasleben said:
I prefer the phraseology "Got 'im on the fishfinder good buddy, 10-4 over. No joy!"
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One of these days when I don't really need it just to throw the pilot for a loop I am going to say "maintain TCAS separation".



BTW thanks for keeping the speed up that Dash-8 was eating you up good yesterday.
 
boondr said:
BTW thanks for keeping the speed up that Dash-8 was eating you up good yesterday.
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No prob! Could have given you faster, too. Empty leg. :D

Seriously, trick with us is to keep us descending. 180-190 KIAS in the terminal area is easily done until short final.
 
dasleben said:
No prob! Could have given you faster, too. Empty leg. :D

Seriously, trick with us is to keep us descending. 180-190 KIAS in the terminal area is easily done until short final.
Click to expand...


That's why I gave you that 2500 right after the 3000, I remembered you had told me that. Can't go lower than that in that area because MTN's class D.



Kind of glad I did that two because it straight blew up right after that, I had 4 jets a Saratoga and a Skyhawk all jumbled together right after the Dash for the right side and the left was out to 25 miles.
 
cmill said:
Remember, the proper phrase is "negative contact." Not "Im IMC."
Click to expand...
I just hate it when some guy who has actually read the AIM comes in and ruins a great thread listing all the non-standard ways to make a radio call.

FAVORITES:

Tally-ho!

Got him on the fish finder.

We are looking, but we don't see him right now, but he might be tucked behind our wing, and the sun is kind of in our face, but we will keep looking for him and in the mean time, you keep making those calls for us will you please.

Roger.

Ah, I think I see him, what color is his plane?
 
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