"I'm so glad we're not flying on one of dem turboprops!"

A couple years back we were in LGA and a passenger is huffing and puffing about how small the airplane is and it's "A piece". The Captain was in earshot and he gets up and says hello to the passenger, who then complains and says he hates flying on such small airplanes and ask how we feel about flying such a tiny little airplane. The Captain looks him straight in the eye with a straight face and says, "I'll bet it's bigger than your Pinto." End of conversation.

The Captain now flies for a major airline. :)
 
And a story that goes with this thread. Back in the winter when we were doing our FLL-EYW run 40 times a day, there was one trip I was on where storms had shut down FLL and everyone went to MIA then it moved over MIA and everyone went to FLL. Well we started to leave after the airport reopened and EVERYONE was trying to leave at the same time. The wait for takeoff on 9L was over an hour, planes were stacked all down the taxiways and down their third runway. I finally had the bright idea before we taxied out to take 9R. They were like taxi to 9R for immediate take off. I made sure to tell the people on our announcement that I knew a lot of them hated to ride on the RJ but if they would look out the window at all the "big" airplanes and how they had to wait in line for over an hour as we took off #1. I enjoyed saying that.

Air Wisconsin was flying FLL-EYW? That's crazy! A 4800ft runway seems a little short for a slat-less CRJ200 on landing...are you guys pretty weight-restricted there?

I'm a little confused, though...the CRJ200's short-field capabilities aren't *that* much different from 737's, 757's, etc...I'm surprised no one else was taking 9R.
 
I wish everyone would lay off the RJ's and their pilots.

You are, unquestionably, the victim of some unfair prejudice. But my personal opinions to this regard are different than those of your average passenger. My characterization of RJ pilots is based on my own experiences, the experiences of friends and coworkers, and even by some of what I read on this message board.

Let me explain what I mean. By working for a commuter, then moving on to the majors, and finding my way BACK to the commuters I had a relatively unique perspective that not many people share. I was able to see the evolution of regional airline pilots over the span of a decade.

Now you may be thinking, "Nothing changed". On the contrary, everything changed. At the most basic level the attitude of regional airline pilots towards their jobs changed. And it is this new attitude, I submit, that exposes your operations to greater risk.

In the mid 1990s, people were still in a rush to get to the majors, but the hurdles were higher. PFT existed, to be certain, but even PFT candidates had in excess of 1500 hours TT and 500 multi-engine. And for their $10,000 "investment" they earned the privilege of flying a Jetstream or a Brazilia. They worked hard. Sometimes flying as many as 10 leg days with no autopilot, no flight attendant, in all weather and in a variety of airspace.

As with most things in life, those which you work hardest for you appreciate the most. Knowing full well that not every pilot would make it to the big leagues, these regional pilots strove for excellence. That is not to say that everyone followed the rules every time, but they made no conscious effort to DISregard the rules.

Fast forward a decade.

Today many of your peers make the choice -- the conscious decision -- to violate their company regulations. Many times the choice seems inocuous. They choose not to wear their hat. They choose to wear an Ipod on the flight deck. It makes a customer such as myself wonder, "What other parts of their ops manual are they ignoring?"

Sometimes their choices are less inocuous. On my second tour through the commuters I saw pilots choose to do a haphazard preflight. I saw pilots choose to continue unstabilized approaches and force landings from bad situations. We've all seen pilots CHOOSE to push on in weather that should have been respected. or CHOOSE to press a fuel situation further than they should have.

This generation of pilots never had to work for what they have been given, and as a result they do not appreciate what they have. They do not protect and honor the profession. And as a result the profession will not be what it was when it is passed to the next generation.

My generation made mistakes. The outsourcing of turbojet aircraft was a big one. Scope should have been ironclad. We screwed up. But our mistakes were political, whereas some of your peers are out there each and every day making the choice to push the envelope and to incur risk not only on behalf of themselves but on behalf of 50-70 passengers and their families.

It is those people who make me think twice about buying a ticket on an RJ. Perhaps i'm being dramatic. But, if so, the difference in pilots between the mid 90s and the mid 2000s has been as dramatic in my eyes.

So I hope this explains why I dont "lay off" of RJs and their pilots. I expect more from them. I expect them to strive for excellence every time. It is a matter of integrity -- doing the right thing, even when nobody is watching.
 
As long as I could I kept it real. A reasoned individual realizes you can't rationalize with the irrational. I'd smile say hi, and relax.....

The internal monlouge would give these witty retorts:

"Why yes sir, it is small. That said, it's aluminum, long and narrow, sits on six wheels and has to be towed out of it's parking spot, much like your house."

"Ma'am, I apologize for the size of the airplane. And if you really think about it, is the plane too small, or your ass too big? By the way, nice leopard print body suit. Did you get it at a yardsale?"

"Yes sir, I understand. If you can find 300 of your closest friends that want to buy airline tickets at a resonable price from Albany to Philly 5 times aday each way, we'd love to put a big jet on it. More money for me...."

"Well ma'am, if you'd just deplane and softly caress the nose, it'll grow to about 4 times the size it is now. Thanks for flying with us!!"
 
Zap -

I respect your perspective and always refer to your posts for insight. However, I think you're painting with a broad stroke. The majority of pilots at my regional flew 135 freight/corporate, 1900s, you name it, before showing up to fly the -200. In fact, those who've been here for a while were flying 100-seat jets in mountainous terrain for six figures prior to flying the CRJ. I went to the 12th best university in the nation, flew turboprops, and now am a regional FO. I am on track to earn $50,000 this year, take pride in my profession, and enjoy my job. I make sure my uniform appears neat and that my actions in public are appropriate. I respect this profession and am well aware that those senior to me had a lot more experience before getting a regional job. I am certainly not the only one, either.

Your post reminds me a lot of what I experienced in law enforcement. Everyone is a "damn inexperienced rookie" who is junior to you, even by one academy class. The leaders of law enforcement made sure to abolish such sentiment and encouraged those with experience to mentor the rookies, not alienate them.

Again, I see your point and certainly know some people that fit your mold. Just wanted to throw my 2 cents in.


You are, unquestionably, the victim of some unfair prejudice. But my personal opinions to this regard are different than those of your average passenger. My characterization of RJ pilots is based on my own experiences, the experiences of friends and coworkers, and even by some of what I read on this message board.

Let me explain what I mean. By working for a commuter, then moving on to the majors, and finding my way BACK to the commuters I had a relatively unique perspective that not many people share. I was able to see the evolution of regional airline pilots over the span of a decade.

Now you may be thinking, "Nothing changed". On the contrary, everything changed. At the most basic level the attitude of regional airline pilots towards their jobs changed. And it is this new attitude, I submit, that exposes your operations to greater risk.

In the mid 1990s, people were still in a rush to get to the majors, but the hurdles were higher. PFT existed, to be certain, but even PFT candidates had in excess of 1500 hours TT and 500 multi-engine. And for their $10,000 "investment" they earned the privilege of flying a Jetstream or a Brazilia. They worked hard. Sometimes flying as many as 10 leg days with no autopilot, no flight attendant, in all weather and in a variety of airspace.

As with most things in life, those which you work hardest for you appreciate the most. Knowing full well that not every pilot would make it to the big leagues, these regional pilots strove for excellence. That is not to say that everyone followed the rules every time, but they made no conscious effort to DISregard the rules.

Fast forward a decade.

Today many of your peers make the choice -- the conscious decision -- to violate their company regulations. Many times the choice seems inocuous. They choose not to wear their hat. They choose to wear an Ipod on the flight deck. It makes a customer such as myself wonder, "What other parts of their ops manual are they ignoring?"

Sometimes their choices are less inocuous. On my second tour through the commuters I saw pilots choose to do a haphazard preflight. I saw pilots choose to continue unstabilized approaches and force landings from bad situations. We've all seen pilots CHOOSE to push on in weather that should have been respected. or CHOOSE to press a fuel situation further than they should have.

This generation of pilots never had to work for what they have been given, and as a result they do not appreciate what they have. They do not protect and honor the profession. And as a result the profession will not be what it was when it is passed to the next generation.

My generation made mistakes. The outsourcing of turbojet aircraft was a big one. Scope should have been ironclad. We screwed up. But our mistakes were political, whereas some of your peers are out there each and every day making the choice to push the envelope and to incur risk not only on behalf of themselves but on behalf of 50-70 passengers and their families.

It is those people who make me think twice about buying a ticket on an RJ. Perhaps i'm being dramatic. But, if so, the difference in pilots between the mid 90s and the mid 2000s has been as dramatic in my eyes.

So I hope this explains why I dont "lay off" of RJs and their pilots. I expect more from them. I expect them to strive for excellence every time. It is a matter of integrity -- doing the right thing, even when nobody is watching.
 
You are, unquestionably, the victim of some unfair prejudice. But my personal opinions to this regard are different than those of your average passenger. My characterization of RJ pilots is based on my own experiences, the experiences of friends and coworkers, and even by some of what I read on this message board.

Let me explain what I mean. By working for a commuter, then moving on to the majors, and finding my way BACK to the commuters I had a relatively unique perspective that not many people share. I was able to see the evolution of regional airline pilots over the span of a decade.

Now you may be thinking, "Nothing changed". On the contrary, everything changed. At the most basic level the attitude of regional airline pilots towards their jobs changed. And it is this new attitude, I submit, that exposes your operations to greater risk.

In the mid 1990s, people were still in a rush to get to the majors, but the hurdles were higher. PFT existed, to be certain, but even PFT candidates had in excess of 1500 hours TT and 500 multi-engine. And for their $10,000 "investment" they earned the privilege of flying a Jetstream or a Brazilia. They worked hard. Sometimes flying as many as 10 leg days with no autopilot, no flight attendant, in all weather and in a variety of airspace.

As with most things in life, those which you work hardest for you appreciate the most. Knowing full well that not every pilot would make it to the big leagues, these regional pilots strove for excellence. That is not to say that everyone followed the rules every time, but they made no conscious effort to DISregard the rules.

Fast forward a decade.

Today many of your peers make the choice -- the conscious decision -- to violate their company regulations. Many times the choice seems inocuous. They choose not to wear their hat. They choose to wear an Ipod on the flight deck. It makes a customer such as myself wonder, "What other parts of their ops manual are they ignoring?"

Sometimes their choices are less inocuous. On my second tour through the commuters I saw pilots choose to do a haphazard preflight. I saw pilots choose to continue unstabilized approaches and force landings from bad situations. We've all seen pilots CHOOSE to push on in weather that should have been respected. or CHOOSE to press a fuel situation further than they should have.

This generation of pilots never had to work for what they have been given, and as a result they do not appreciate what they have. They do not protect and honor the profession. And as a result the profession will not be what it was when it is passed to the next generation.

My generation made mistakes. The outsourcing of turbojet aircraft was a big one. Scope should have been ironclad. We screwed up. But our mistakes were political, whereas some of your peers are out there each and every day making the choice to push the envelope and to incur risk not only on behalf of themselves but on behalf of 50-70 passengers and their families.

It is those people who make me think twice about buying a ticket on an RJ. Perhaps i'm being dramatic. But, if so, the difference in pilots between the mid 90s and the mid 2000s has been as dramatic in my eyes.

So I hope this explains why I dont "lay off" of RJs and their pilots. I expect more from them. I expect them to strive for excellence every time. It is a matter of integrity -- doing the right thing, even when nobody is watching.

You make your point very, eloquently (sp?). However, as Pen and Teller say, ########. No member of any generation is ever going to look back and sling mud at themselves. The previous generation ALWAYS says the new generation is lazy, unprofessional, doesn't work for what they have, etc etc, it is almost as sure as the sun rising tomorrow.

Like you, I have been up and "down" the ladder, if that is a proper way to put it. You paint a picture of a generation of pilots who by majority fly by the book, never break SOP and are professionals through and through. By contrast you paint this latest generation as punks who put in no time, have no value, etc. Again, back to Pen and Teller.

Sure, there are punks, iPod dorks, idiots who put lighted wheels on their roller bags, people who disregard rules and so on. The previous generation had ego maniac Captains, drunks who stayed out drinking until 3 hours prior to show then flew pax from FAR to MSP, captains who didn't listen to FEs and ran airplanes out of gas WHILE going away from the airport, captains who didn't listen to their FO and took off and impacted a bridge/took off and ran into another airplane, landed in a thunderstorm, and so on.

This has nothing to do with work ethic, where one comes from, how you got to where you are now, it is all perspective. In the 60s it was that devil music rock and roll, now the "evil" thing is iPods and sunglasses and spikey hair. None of which have any real impact on anyone's ability to do their job, it is simply a generation gap, a difference in culture if you will.

I will not argue the lower level of experience in the cockpit these days, it does increase the risk factor. However, I believe that increase is still well within safety limits and is less and less of a factor as these pilots spend time on the line. I will even grant that there is a slightly higher ratio of buttheads than in years past, but I do question if it is that generation that is the buttheads or their mentors that made them buttheads.

Someone on flightinfo had a great quote, something along the lines of "...pilots are only happy when they are tearing someone else down and never happy when another pilot suceeds..." or something along those lines.

Don't put yourself on too high of a pedestal, one generation is really no better than the next. They all have their drawbacks and strengths, it all cancels out in the end leaving a relatively level playing field.

All that being said, for crying out loud people, this is a job, nothing more or less, do it correctly and strive for perfection and don't accept deviations from that, short and sweet, DO YOUR DAMN JOB.
 
I tried to be clear that this was an unfair characterization. One bad apple ruins the bunch so to speak. But it's important that we look at ourselves critically and objectively. Ask ourselves, "am I that guy?"

The point was this. I wanted to share with you my thought process when I fly on an RJ.

In this particular case I has purchased tickets for myself, my wife, and my child. My entire world is in your hands. I want to be able to trust you, but much of my experience makes that difficult to do.

Moreso when I wonder, "Does the FO have 300 hours TT?" If so, does the Captain have 1500 hours TT?" and "Has either one of these pilots not seen four seasons as a professional aviator?" "Will they make the conservative decision when faced with weather or other decisions?"

All a paying passenger has to base their trust on is your appearance.

All I -- as a paying passenger -- have to base MY trust on is your appearance, and a decade of working as your colleague.
 
Funniest thing I ever had a PAX say to me on the B1900:

"Is this thing safe? My KIA is bigger than this thing."

I blinked. She was cute, though, so I smiled my most B.S.-laden professional smile and assured her of course it was.

I remember a discussion I had with my Dad (also a pilot) way back in the day. He told me that turboprops were actually more efficient, that they'd save gas and they're better down low and slow, where risk is highest. I asked him why everybody flew jets.

He told me, "Jets are quieter and faster. They're more marketable to the public."

That was well over a decade ago. When I look around at the SUV driving, fast-food swilling, lazy American public, it's clear. Until the turboprop flight becomes notably cheaper directly at ticket purchase, they'll always play second fiddle to a jet, any jet, as far as Joe Public goes. Joe Public wants movies and a third cocktail. He wants somebody he can yell at a pillow for his giant fat head.

Stupid, true, but hey, you gotta sell what your customer will buy. If the customer were smarter, they'd clue in and the 'turboprop revolution' would actually take hold. If that happened, I'd not hesitate to a drop a bid for a turboprop slot, so long as the money and quality of life was right.

I'm with Boris on this one. Just pat the PAX on the head and tell 'em it'll be alright and get it done.
 
Now, I'm not as eloquent or as smart as any of the three of you.

However, here's my take on it, through a practical exercise.

We used to fly PNS-DFW at night.

On clear nights, as CA, I'd have MANY of my F/Os collecting their $xx/hr. I always had my enroute chart out, my navaids on my moving map (It's almost like cheating, you know). Bored out of my gourd, but keeping up, doing mental math (cause GIGO we all know). I'd note that the F/O would not have an enroute chart out. Had no way to fix their position.

About 1/2 way there, I'd roll my MFD to max range and cover the line and situational cues with my shoe. I'd ask the F/O where we were. Now, if you looked right there was a HUGE group of lights to the north. You look left there was a HUGE group of lights to the south. If you'd look between the HUGE groups of lights, there as a really dark area that pointed mostly north/south with some light to moderate turns and outlined by spotty lighting (It's a poor discription of how the Mississippi looks at night). I'd casually ask if they knew where they were. The VAST majority had no clue what those cities were, and if we could take a jet in there if it was on fire.

This was the occurance the majority of the time. In a glass airplane, with more situational awareness tools than you can shake a stick at. No idea where they were. And you fly over the area ALOT....

"...but ATC will tell us where to go..."
"...well, you know where you're at..."


Don't worry, I did the same thing when I gave FED rides too...same out come
 
I tried to be clear that this was an unfair characterization. One bad apple ruins the bunch so to speak. But it's important that we look at ourselves critically and objectively. Ask ourselves, "am I that guy?"

The point was this. I wanted to share with you my thought process when I fly on an RJ.

In this particular case I has purchased tickets for myself, my wife, and my child. My entire world is in your hands. I want to be able to trust you, but much of my experience makes that difficult to do.

Moreso when I wonder, "Does the FO have 300 hours TT?" If so, does the Captain have 1500 hours TT?" and "Has either one of these pilots not seen four seasons as a professional aviator?" "Will they make the conservative decision when faced with weather or other decisions?"

All a paying passenger has to base their trust on is your appearance.

All I -- as a paying passenger -- have to base MY trust on is your appearance, and a decade of working as your colleague.


Cool cool, I'm not here to argue or point fingers or make point and counter point. You are obviousley free to have your own opinions and make your own judgement calls. The only thing that bothers me, and it isn't you specifically Zap, is the "from on high" finger pointing that goes on when those doing the pointing don't have a leg to stand on. Instead of trying to humiliate and mock how about we mentor and teach?
 
Turboprop guys around here are a sensitive bunch. According to them an RJ will start itself and fly to a destination with the flip of a switch while what they accomplish is nothing short of the Wright Flyer's first flight. :)

now that's funny :rawk:
 
In the mid 1990s, people were still in a rush to get to the majors, but the hurdles were higher. PFT existed, to be certain, but even PFT candidates had in excess of 1500 hours TT and 500 multi-engine.

There are people that still have that these days before they go to a regional, you know. And then some . . . in addition to a LOT of life experience. Like, past 21 years of life experience.

;)
 
Don't make me point my finger at you... ;)

PS - It's really hard to be "on high" when you fly a Learjet. I'm generally lower than anybody who isn't in a 152. Ask Polar. He's constantly teasing me and my "light twin"
 
Don't make me point my finger at you... ;)

PS - It's really hard to be "on high" when you fly a Learjet. I'm generally lower than anybody who isn't in a 152. Ask Polar. He's constantly teasing me and my "light twin"

Anyone who flies the J31/32 and doesn't die is a good pilot in my book..
 
Don't make me point my finger at you... ;)

PS - It's really hard to be "on high" when you fly a Learjet. I'm generally lower than anybody who isn't in a 152. Ask Polar. He's constantly teasing me and my "light twin"

Don't be so hard on yourself. Citation drivers are lower...:laff: Of course, I can stand up in my airplane...so maybe we're just slower...lol

:sarcasm:
 
Now, I'm not as eloquent or as smart as any of the three of you.

However, here's my take on it, through a practical exercise.

We used to fly PNS-DFW at night.

On clear nights, as CA, I'd have MANY of my F/Os collecting their $xx/hr. I always had my enroute chart out, my navaids on my moving map (It's almost like cheating, you know). Bored out of my gourd, but keeping up, doing mental math (cause GIGO we all know). I'd note that the F/O would not have an enroute chart out. Had no way to fix their position.

About 1/2 way there, I'd roll my MFD to max range and cover the line and situational cues with my shoe. I'd ask the F/O where we were. Now, if you looked right there was a HUGE group of lights to the north. You look left there was a HUGE group of lights to the south. If you'd look between the HUGE groups of lights, there as a really dark area that pointed mostly north/south with some light to moderate turns and outlined by spotty lighting (It's a poor discription of how the Mississippi looks at night). I'd casually ask if they knew where they were. The VAST majority had no clue what those cities were, and if we could take a jet in there if it was on fire.

This was the occurance the majority of the time. In a glass airplane, with more situational awareness tools than you can shake a stick at. No idea where they were. And you fly over the area ALOT....

"...but ATC will tell us where to go..."
"...well, you know where you're at..."


Don't worry, I did the same thing when I gave FED rides too...same out come

I'm going to take a wild guess that you are referring to MEM and New Orleans for 10 points.
 
Probably missing his point (just guessing). The implication was that the pilot in question was acting as a passenger. Just warming the seat while the airplane brought him from point A to point B, rather than being prepared for some eventuality that might require a diversion.

You see something similar when pilots become too reliant upon VNAV and fail to calculate TOD for expected crossing restrictions. Then, ATC assigns something unrealistic and one pilot says "Roger" while the other scrambles to put it in the box.
 
You see something similar when pilots become too reliant upon VNAV and fail to calculate TOD for expected crossing restrictions. Then, ATC assigns something unrealistic and one pilot says "Roger" while the other scrambles to put it in the box.

This is especially true with climbs in the CRJ. Only experience in type will allow you to determine if you really can make it to 250 in X minutes on an ISA +15 day.
 
It's done in Asia all the time:
744D

I believe Jakarta to Singapore (20 min flight) is still run about 9 times a day still with 777's and 747's by SIA. Of course that has nothing to do with the conversation at all, but since someone else started talking about Asian flights I thought I'd just go with the tangent.
 
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