IFR questions

[fly4food84]

When does a pilot not fly a procedure turn?
Radar vectored, no procedure turn depicted and what am I missing?

When must a pilot fly a procedure turn as depicted?
Teardrop and I believe there is something else?

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

When does a pilot not fly a procedure turn?
Radar vectored, no procedure turn depicted and what am I missing?

When must a pilot fly a procedure turn as depicted?
Teardrop and I believe there is something else?

Easy to answer, but you can find all of them by reading the regulations and the AIM.

I'm not trying to be a wise-ass. This is IFR. Instrument work is so much more about knowing and understanding and finding rules and procedures than it is about flying skills. You =really= need to be able to do this.

 

[Cessnaflyer]

You can read the Instrument Procedures Handbook and the Instrument Flying Handbook online also.

http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/instrument_procedures_handbook/
http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/aviation/instrument_flying_handbook/

 

[E6BAV8R]

I'll throw another hint:

Look on page 721 of the AIM.

 

[meritflyer]

When does a pilot not fly a procedure turn?
Radar vectored, no procedure turn depicted and what am I missing?

Radar vectored to the FAC or IF, NoPT depicted, and a hold-in-lieu of a PT, and a timed approach from a holding fix.

 

[dc3flyer]

Isn't an arc one of them?

You never have to fly a PT as depicted, it only has to be done on that side.

 

[meritflyer]

Isn't an arc one of them?

An arc isn't described in the AIM. It does however, falls within the "NoPT" section though as arcs sould have the NoPT labeled on the approach plate.

 

[meritflyer]

You never have to fly a PT as depicted, it only has to be done on that side.

Not sure what you mean here.

 

[dc3flyer]

When must a pilot fly a procedure turn as depicted?
Teardrop and I believe there is something else?

You are not required, as far as I know, to fly the specific headings on a PT, or even the pattern depicted, the PT only has to be made on the same side of the approach as depicted because that is the protected side.

 

[meritflyer]

You are not required, as far as I know, to fly the specific headings on a PT, or even the pattern depicted, the PT only has to be made on the same side of the approach as depicted because that is the protected side.

Umm.. I have to disagree.

AIM 5-4-9(1) discusses PTs. It says -

"Some of the options are the 45 degree procedure turn, the racetrack pattern, the teardrop pattern, or the 80 degree <-> 260 degree course reversal. Some procedure turns are specified by procedural track. These turns must be flown exactly as depicted".

That sounds pretty clear to me that they must be flown as depicted on your approach plate.

 

[dc3flyer]

I'll take that.

I have never seen one where it gave a "procedural track". I'm sure someone will have an example.

 

[Flysher]

I thought if it showed the little barb (on the NOS plates) then you could fly it however you wanted as long as it was on the protected side, but if it specified (holding pattern/teardrop etc) then you had to fly it as depicted.

 

[meritflyer]

I have never seen one where it gave a "procedural track".

This is just the depiction on the chart.

 

[planejay]

Umm.. I have to disagree.

AIM 5-4-9(1) discusses PTs. It says -

"Some of the options are the 45 degree procedure turn, the racetrack pattern, the teardrop pattern, or the 80 degree <-> 260 degree course reversal. Some procedure turns are specified by procedural track. These turns must be flown exactly as depicted".

That sounds pretty clear to me that they must be flown as depicted on your approach plate.

Ok I thought I knew this pretty good then I think I started to read too much into it. Earlier in that paragragh it says "On U.S. Government charts, a barbed arrow indicates the direction or side of the outbound course on which the procedure turn is made. Headings are provided for the course reversal using the 45 degree type procedure turn. However, the point at which the turn may be comenced and the type and rate of turn is left to the discretion of the pilot. Some options are..."

So I am reading that if the 45 degree type is depicted that we can choose the type of course reversal. Any takers/opinions?

 

[ananoman]

Umm.. I have to disagree.

AIM 5-4-9(1) discusses PTs. It says -

"Some of the options are the 45 degree procedure turn, the racetrack pattern, the teardrop pattern, or the 80 degree <-> 260 degree course reversal. Some procedure turns are specified by procedural track. These turns must be flown exactly as depicted".

That sounds pretty clear to me that they must be flown as depicted on your approach plate.

The only procedure turns that have to be flow as depicted are the ones depicted as a holding pattern. If it is just a 'normal' PT, you can do an 80/260, a holding pattern, or what is depicted.

 

[E6BAV8R]

An arc isn't described in the AIM. It does however, falls within the "NoPT" section though as arcs sould have the NoPT labeled on the approach plate.

Sucky thing.. I failed an instrument oral checkride since the DME Arc didn't have NoPT and I said I'd do the PT. It didn't logicaly make sense, but to give the "legal" answer I said I would do it - ding ding pink slip. My instructor and him had a nice conversation about that one.

 

[meritflyer]

The only procedure turns that have to be flow as depicted are the ones depicted as a holding pattern. If it is just a 'normal' PT, you can do an 80/260, a holding pattern, or what is depicted.

The only problem I have is the AIM's lack of definition of "procedural track".

Other sections which discuss PTs and/or HILs, are very clear about HILs.

 

[Texasspilot]

The only procedure turns that have to be flow as depicted are the ones depicted as a holding pattern. If it is just a 'normal' PT, you can do an 80/260, a holding pattern, or what is depicted.

Not quite true...remember...Some procedure turns are specified by procedural track. These turns must be flown exactly as depicted.

Though rare, teardrop procedure turns are required to be flown as depicted due to there procedural track.


http://www.myairplane.com/databases/approach/pdfs/00379I12.PDF

If it is shown as your standard procedure turn then all that is required is that you do your course reversal on the side depicted.

heres a good article by AOPA/JEPPESON.
http://www.jeppesen.com/download/aopa/jun99aopa.pdf

 

[ananoman]

Not quite true...remember...Some procedure turns are specified by procedural track. These turns must be flown exactly as depicted.

Though rare teardrop procedure turns are required to be flown as depicted.


http://www.myairplane.com/databases/approach/pdfs/00379I12.PDF

If it is shown as your standard procedure turn then all that is required is that you do your course reversal on the side depicted.

I thought about including those as well, as they are pretty common outside the US. But, then I thought that these were kind of obvious, as they actually specify the radials to be used to fly the course reversal. It would probably be better to say that anything that is not the common 45 degree PT has to be flown as depicted.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

I'll take that.

I have never seen one where it gave a "procedural track". I'm sure someone will have an example.

The hold-in-lieu is one; the teardrop PT is another.

And I'm sure someone can come up with another that fall into neither of those. I can't remember it now, but I saw one posted on a forum during a similar discussion.