meritflyer
Well-Known Member
If a aircraft operating in Class A airspace experiences lost comms, what are they expected, from an ATC standpoint, to do?
IFR Lost Comms in Class A
- Thread starter meritflyer
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JaceTheAce
Well-Known Member
Freak out and eject.
No seriously... I don't know. I am guessing squawk 7600, then if it's VFR get down below 18,000 feet and land as soon as practical at a nearby airport... if not VFR then follow the rest of 91.185.
But DO NOT quote me on this because I am not exactly sure.
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
Listen to everybody on 121.5 telling somebody to switch frequencies, laugh at the guy they are talking about, then realize they are talking to you. Put down the sudoku and change the freq. to newly assigned.
Or, if VFR, blah blah blah...the usual lost comms stuff. It doesn't differentiate below and above 18K.
Now Joe, I know it's late, but if they lost comms then how are they going to hear people talking about them..?
I'm thinking if they lose comms, they can't hear either.....
Help me out, what am I missing......
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
I'd love to hear from the controllers on this one. My attitude has always been lost comm is an emergency, declare it via your transponder, and divert to the nearest suitable. That's what I'd do. Pilots shouldn't feel bound by the lost comm FAR if they feel there is a safer alternative. 91.3 gives you the right to make the call.
What does ATC think?
What does ATC think?
JaceTheAce
Well-Known Member
Just whip out your handheld transceiver and yap away.
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
Now Joe, I know it's late, but if they lost comms then how are they going to hear people talking about them..?
I'm thinking if they lose comms, they can't hear either.....
Help me out, what am I missing......
It was a joke, not very funny, but relevant none the less. Up here, since there are no Airnet airplanes around, I keep my back-up radio on 121.5 and this is all I hear, "United XXX this is United YYY on Guard. Center requests you come up on 1xx.xx" (insert your own favorite airline, they all do it). Those were all technically "lost comms" for a little while, just the pilots didn't know it.
If you're flying along for a while, the controller has nothing to do, and the radio is quiet, how do you know when he/she forgets to hand you off. It happens. If it gets really quiet for a long time, it is possible you lost comms with who you were talking to and didn't know it. You could be out of range, could be an actual problem, but if you don't fly the route every single night, then you won't know where the handoffs are supposed to be.
I'm kinda curious to the answer from ATC guys/gals also. It's always interesting hearing what they expect us to do in situations.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
txpilot said:
During some of the hours that I fly, it's extremely quiet on the radio. Not uncommon to fly for an hour, and hear NOBODY on the radio.
That being said, I can usually tell you EXACTLY when I am supposed to get handed off - as in, I have the new freq in standby, and my finger is on the PTT button, ready to take the handoff.
JEP said:
It can go both ways. When I had my loss of communications a few months ago, the controllers could hear me, but I couldn't hear them. So, I assumed that they could NOT hear me (because I couldn't verify either way) and still made an effort to broadcast my intentions the entire time.
I called the tower after I got on the ground, and the controller told me that he'd spoken to Center and TRACON, and all were glad that I did exactly what they expected me to do. He said that the problem comes about when pilots try to take matters into their own hands and "rethink the situation". So, I take that for what it's worth.
Fox Xray
ATC
This subject comes up now and then in discussions... We expect you to fly as you are filed to your destination. Squawk 7600 and we'll know what's going on. Air carriers or corporate type equipment who's rules require IFR I fully expect you to continue to fly your last cleared route and 99.9% of the time they do. I have seen general aviation A/C do some strange things with radio failures but I almost expect that.
The original question asked about class A airspace and to me anyone up there should have the experience and knowledge to handle things properly. Squawk radio failure, fly your last cleared route complete with all previously issued restrictions and we'll know what you are doing. If you're problem is more then just radio and you need to get on the ground squawk emergency and we do our best to figure out what you are doing. I like what mtsu_av8er said about broadcasting in the blind, a lot of times we can hear you but you can't hear us... little things like that always help.
The original question asked about class A airspace and to me anyone up there should have the experience and knowledge to handle things properly. Squawk radio failure, fly your last cleared route complete with all previously issued restrictions and we'll know what you are doing. If you're problem is more then just radio and you need to get on the ground squawk emergency and we do our best to figure out what you are doing. I like what mtsu_av8er said about broadcasting in the blind, a lot of times we can hear you but you can't hear us... little things like that always help.
Stone Cold
Well-Known Member
That describes my nights to a "T". I love knowing they are going to hand me off before they do and what frequency.
willc
New Member
The acronym that I have been taught and have always briefed for all classes of airspace is "Avenue Fame":
Assigned
Vectors
EFC
Filed
Assigned
MEA/MOCA
EFC
The AVEF applies to your Route and the AME applies to your altitude followed in order of precedence. The way I have always briefed lost comms is squawk 7600 and make all calls in the blind, be predictable, if
VFR-Come in for a visual straight in, rock the wings looking for flashing green followed by steady green ALDIS lamps.
IFR-Commence your approach at your filed arrival time, a tacan or VOR approach is the most predictable, if possible.
Assigned
Vectors
EFC
Filed
Assigned
MEA/MOCA
EFC
The AVEF applies to your Route and the AME applies to your altitude followed in order of precedence. The way I have always briefed lost comms is squawk 7600 and make all calls in the blind, be predictable, if
VFR-Come in for a visual straight in, rock the wings looking for flashing green followed by steady green ALDIS lamps.
IFR-Commence your approach at your filed arrival time, a tacan or VOR approach is the most predictable, if possible.
Merlin
Well-Known Member
Ok, so this brings up a side issue... lets say we arrive at our destination, in IMC, 8 minutes ahead of our filed arrival time. Does ATC really want us to hold at the IAF while watching the clock tick down to the arrival time before we can shoot the approach???
I would think that ATC would want us to get our A** on the ground so that we stop gumming up the works and they can get back to business as usual.
I look at it this way: I am in IMC with no radios, I have an emergency. I start to wonder what is going to fail next??? I'm not about to sit out there and hold for 10 minutes until my filed arrival time.
Comments?
meritflyer
Well-Known Member
Per the regs, yes. They do.
Isnt that what it says?
Isnt that what it says?
This is kind of one of those situations where the book may say one thing, but the reality of what will happen is different. I mean, if you're drilling a hole in the sky for 500 miles squawking 7600, all the players are going to know that you're a priority. I don't think any controller in his or her right mind is going to be trying to squeeze arrivals in front of you while you work the racetrack out in holding at the IAF. They want you on the ground. First, for your safety. But secondly, working a nordo is a pain and they want you out of their hair as well. Nothing personal!
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
One thing I did as a CFI is always have the instrument students file their flight plan to include the IAF to the runway you most likely would be using based on metar/notams.
In the 121 world, the last fix is not always a VOR or an IAF for the airport. One thing I've wondered is how to transition to an IAF? Do you just sorta fly direct? What altitudes? What if there isn't a transition route from you last enroute fix to the IAF? I'm more worried about avoiding other planes than ground avoidance at this point.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
"If a aircraft operating in Class A airspace experiences lost comms, what are they expected, from an ATC standpoint, to do?"
I think what you are asking is what if you're a NORDO in Class A (or a Class A NORDO...haha), and you encounter VFR, what do you do?
I just read it and it says maintain VFR with no thought given to being above 18K. So, there I am in my jet and I'm dodging clouds all the way down diverting to a VFR suitable airport.
So, there I am at FL280 squaking 7600 and ATC see's me diving, turning, doing all kinds of crazy stuff, doesn't know where I'm going, and doesn't know I've just encountered VFR and am maintaining VFR while diverting.
Don't know about you, but that doesn't seem to safe, yet that's what the regs say.
I think we have to realize that sometimes following the regs to the letter isn't the best thing to do. That's why we have 91.3 and are called upon to use good judgement.
I think what you are asking is what if you're a NORDO in Class A (or a Class A NORDO...haha), and you encounter VFR, what do you do?
I just read it and it says maintain VFR with no thought given to being above 18K. So, there I am in my jet and I'm dodging clouds all the way down diverting to a VFR suitable airport.
So, there I am at FL280 squaking 7600 and ATC see's me diving, turning, doing all kinds of crazy stuff, doesn't know where I'm going, and doesn't know I've just encountered VFR and am maintaining VFR while diverting.
Don't know about you, but that doesn't seem to safe, yet that's what the regs say.
I think we have to realize that sometimes following the regs to the letter isn't the best thing to do. That's why we have 91.3 and are called upon to use good judgement.
Yeah, it doesn't seem at all like a warm fuzzy. However, I can assure you that a lot of people really start paying attention in facilities when someone goes NORDO. So you've got lots of eyes making sure that the skies around you are free from traffic for you. It's not always perfect, and I can't stop someone VFR, not talking, not squawking, from flying in front of you. However, controllers are supposed to continue broadcasting traffic calls and advisories to you even if you're squawking NORDO, as maybe your transmitters crapped out, but not your receivers. There's no ideal fix for it, but believe me, especially since 9/11, you go NORDO and people are definitely paying attention to you.
Part of our procedure is to squawk 7600 initially, then if still simple NORDO, squawk 76XX with the last two numbers denoting the runway of intended landing in order to let ATC know. Not regulatory, but more of a local LOA with ARTCC here.
