I think my students are trying to kill me...

saria19

saria19

Well-Known Member
Reason I think they are attempting to kill me is because more often than I'm anywhere near comfortable with, one of my students will do something that another instructor "taught them". And they do this without warning.

I'd like some suggestions from people on how to confront this issue and impress upon my students that suddenly doing zero-G in the middle of a flight, or doing dutch rolls while clearing an area is not appropriate, especially when they have given me no warning.

More importantly, suggestions on how to confront my coworker without sounding overly upset or patronizing. I really don't think these are things we should be teaching new students (however fun the maneuvers may be), especially in their first 10 hours or so.
 
Heh. You just have to put emphasis on the student only doing what was briefed prior to flight. Let them know you would prefer them only to perfomr manuevers as discussed and with no 'funny stuff'. However, you will experience this with practically any and every student in some degree or another.

I'm guessing you're a fairly new instructor based on your reaction, time will widen your comfort zone with unexpected student shenanagins(sp?). Remember to calmy react and tell the SP to do whatever it is you want them to do, and discuss it postflight.
 
Oh, as far as the coworker goes, I suggest just politely asking about what company SOPs say about the specific items, or lack thereof. Or consult a chief pilot or manager for guidance and handeling of the issue.
 
persionally i wouldn't say a thing. When you get a few thousand hours as a CFI, your perspective will change. I'm not saying that condecendingly; it just will.

My advice, advise the student that unexpected actions can be uncomfortable, and if they would like to perform them, discuss with you prior to execution. As for the instructor, leave the person alone. Isn't it hard enough to worry about yorself without having to worry about everyone else?
 
It'll take a long time before a 0 g maneuver will actually get you killed. Same with a dutch roll.

I usually don't get to excited until turn 2 in a spin. Then it's time to do something. :rotfl:

the one thing that scares me is when students over control with their rudders/steering while on the runway. Things can get really ugly quick and legs are a lot harder to overpower that arms.
 
Tell them exactly once to knock it off if you don't like it.

Be firm and authoritative.

This is all you need to do.

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were you not taught in your cfi training that it is the students job to attempt to kill the instructor?
 
Blip16 said:
were you not taught in your cfi training that it is the students job to attempt to kill the instructor?
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:yeahthat: Two instructor kills earns you a gold seal pilot certificate.


First a question: Are you using the term dutch roll properly?

Zero gravity isn't going to hurt you unless they are snapping the controls above Va.

To add to what Cody said: Go around are another potentially deadly one. I had a 100 hour student do a go around from just above stall speed without touching the rudders. The result was about a 20-30 degree bank only a few feet off the ground.

I second the briefing mentioned before, that is always good practice.

Finally, if you have a chance, get a parachute and an instructor that has a good deal of aerobatic time. Take up one of your trainer 152/172/whatever and do some stuff with it. Sounds like you are a bit tense and one great way to relieve that is to see what the plane can really handle.
 
Where I instruct the words " insert name of instructor taught it to me that way" is code for " I was sent by the Peoples Republic to attempt death on you." We use a flying contraption called the Alarus..that thing wants to roll inverted tied up at the ramp.

They may have misinterpreted something another instructor did or said without fully understanding the what, why and when of it. They might be confused about what they thought was the proper procedure. They might just be saving face, if they are foreign you can bet money on it as many cultures don't respond well to being called out directly. So I would tread lightly before questioning another CFI on what a student said they did or didn't in the cockpit.

New students are still at that stage where checklists, procedures, radio calls, you name it.. at 100 knots its just a jumble. The cone of confusion is in the cockpit more often than over the VOR and that makes for a bad witness.

In the beginning they are dead set that the plane will fall out of the sky if they dont use superhuman strength and mental abilities to keep it straight and level. A few hours in, a little confidence in themselves (and their instructor) and suddenly they become eager to explore the flight envelope in greater depth. Ive seen many out of the blue let's tempt fate manuevers. My job is often like being a lifeguard..Im there to jump in when they get too deep. I don't neccessarily teach them how to fly..they teach themselves. I'm just there to keep them safe while they do it and come up with the snazzy explanations.
 
Yes, your students are trying to kill you. In their defense, however, it's probably not deliberate.

I wouldn't worry too much about your coworker. If it makes you that uncomfortable then, if possible, have your students fly with a different instructor on days when you can't work with them.

As to the silliness they're engaging in, use it as a teachable moment. You don't want them doing something? Fine. Just be sure to tell them why. Discuss the importance of briefings and sticking to the plan. Talk a little CRM. Pull up some NTSB reports where a breakdown of communication led to an accident. Try the old Last Thing The Captain Ever Said Joke ("Watch this!").

If you just come down on your students and nothing else, you'll be the bad guy who doesn't let them have fun. But, if you use it as a springboard to some important lessons you'll need to discuss anyway, you're the safe, responsible, A+ teacher.

All things considered, I'd much rather have my students doing stupid stuff 3,000' in the air early to prompt the conversation than having it occur after a close call on take-off or landing.
 
They're all trying to kill you.

And if your co-worker is otherwise a competent individual, I wouldn't take the students' words for it. Most of the time when something like that is going on, they are misunderstanding something the other CFI taught and taking it to an extreme.
 
mojo6911 said:
This is something that needs to be addressed ASAP, especially if said instructor is doing aerobatics with the students.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20071119X01812&key=1

That happened here two years ago. I wish we would have known about it before it happened.
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Three fatal? Oh, and this is why I asked if she was confusing the term "dutch roll." A dutch roll is a safe maneuver that doesn't result in inverted flight, most of the time.

I agree though, aerobatics, including spins (IMO) are a no no with primary students. Avoidance/recognition is the key, I mean stall avoidance/recognition. You can't spin if you don't stall.
 
1) Never let the students exceed your limitations.
2) Your alertness and responsiveness increase as the altitude/airspeed decrease.

Examples:
On a go around, SP applied full power, and released the yoke.
On a go around, SP didn't apply power and pulled back on the yoke.
On a go around, SP applied full power, looked left out of his window as he raised the flaps, and the nose pointed to the ground.
Stall recovery (departure/power on), SP pushed FULL forward on the yoke (he is about 6'4" with very long arms).

These are just a few of the events I've seen over the last 8 years. All examples were done by different people and the maneuvers were briefed/demonstrated ahead of time. Two were fairly "experienced" students who had done it right many times before.

As far as the standardization, that is something that the company needs to address. The CFIs are not doing to the students any good if they are teaching them the wrong way first. I imagine they will bust their checkrides if they just lift the wings to clear the area instead of doing proper clearing turns. If there is one person whose students are doing this, then I'd start by just having a chat with that person. However, if there are many, then I'd recommend talking to the chief, or whoever is the immediate supervisor. You don't have to single people out, but their current system needs attention.
 
shdw said:
Three fatal? Oh, and this is why I asked if she was confusing the term "dutch roll." A dutch roll is a safe maneuver that doesn't result in inverted flight, most of the time.
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I understand that, but you may just be seeing the tip of the iceberg as far as this type of "training" goes.
 
Douglas said:
Tell them exactly once to knock it off if you don't like it.

Be firm and authoritative.

This is all you need to do.

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Click to expand...

Not really.

There's a standarization problem here, not a problem with the student. The student is only doing what he's been shown to do, and ripping him a new one is only going to leave him confused.

For the student, I'd advise having him let you know prior to any maneuvers he's going to do, then let him know if they're more than necessary, performance-wise.

The bigger issue is to have a meeting of the CFIs and Chief Pilot to get on the same page, standards-wise. That would nip this in the bud from the get go.
 
saria19 said:
Reason I think they are attempting to kill me is because more often than I'm anywhere near comfortable with, one of my students will do something that another instructor "taught them". And they do this without warning.

I'd like some suggestions from people on how to confront this issue and impress upon my students that suddenly doing zero-G in the middle of a flight, or doing dutch rolls while clearing an area is not appropriate, especially when they have given me no warning.

More importantly, suggestions on how to confront my coworker without sounding overly upset or patronizing. I really don't think these are things we should be teaching new students (however fun the maneuvers may be), especially in their first 10 hours or so.
Click to expand...

I had a student that was a bit reckless as well, the student learned the hard way when we got into a spin and I just sat there waiting for him to fix it. My method to fix it was to tell the student to act like there was a grandmah, holding a baby in the back seat. It eventually evened out over time. As far as confronting the other CFI, I would just more or less ask "is there method to the madness"....I'd try to find out what the other CFI is teaching, and more importantly...why they are teaching that.
 
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