i finished 112!

the_dmn8tr

New Member
Congrats!
Now if only I could stop spending money in the seminole, that would be great...only 2 flights left!
 

MrLeisure757

New Member
Congratulations! I remember it felt really good completing that flight course, because then it's on to more ratings...Good luck!
 

BIGRIG

Well-Known Member
Shouldn't all of your time be PIC post PPL?
Is 112 the course that you take if you come to UND with a ppl? I think that after you get your private license, all flying done at UND that qualifies should be logged as PIC. Its the way things are done in the real world, and it really is necesarry now. Its your flight time and you are paying for it. Unless you are doing multi, or anything in the arrow before you get your complex rating.
 

BurtonPilot153

Well-Known Member
None of the time in the 112 is logged as PIC (except solos). My instructor told me why but I forget the reason. I think its really dumb but whatev. My instructor even asked his lead.
 

pwttogfk

Well-Known Member
I called UND out on that and told my CFI that I was entitled to PIC per the FARs and would be logging it accordingly. He took it to his course lead, and apparently UND "discourages" it b/c "the airlines don't want to see dual logged as PIC." Whatever, I'm planning on going Navy anyway...
 

juxtapilot

Snowflake
None of the time in the 112 is logged as PIC (except solos). My instructor told me why but I forget the reason. I think its really dumb but whatev. My instructor even asked his lead.
It's because "the airlines don't want it that way." Really dumb rule. Get used to 'em.

I called UND out on that and told my CFI that I was entitled to PIC per the FARs and would be logging it accordingly. He took it to his course lead, and apparently UND "discourages" it b/c "the airlines don't want to see dual logged as PIC." Whatever, I'm planning on going Navy anyway...
Woo hoo!
 

Snickersnwa

Well-Known Member
FWIW, the MEI course logs it commonly as dual given and PIC to satisfy the FAR PIC requirement in attaining the MEI rating.
 

400A

New Member
Is 112 the course that you take if you come to UND with a ppl? I think that after you get your private license, all flying done at UND that qualifies should be logged as PIC. Its the way things are done in the real world, and it really is necesarry now. Its your flight time and you are paying for it. Unless you are doing multi, or anything in the arrow before you get your complex rating.

Not to pick on Bigrig, this one just popped out as the most on point post to respond to. UND, nor any other flight school can tell YOU what you can and cannot log in YOUR logbook. Only course requirement times need to match up in your logbook vs AIMS (if AIMS is still in use, I just dated myself!). UND does suggest not loggind PIC while receiving dual because SOME airlines, Horizon in paticular, IN THE PAST have turned people away during interviews because of this, as well as not having a CURRENT 1st class medical, ie within 6 months.

This whole thread screams of the reason these test courses exist at UND. When you come in with your certificates already almost all of those students are lacking in some area or another in either knowledge, Regs, etc. If the courses didn't exist there would be even more whining when students got farther along and come to find out they are missing a piece to the puzzle then blame UND for not "preparing them", double edged sword. Bigrig eluded to the fact you cannot log PIC in the Arrow, false again, the regs allow you to log PIC for flights where you are rated for category and class (single engine land) and are sole manipulator, so in the Arrow you can log PIC but cannot act as PIC, to distinct "loggings of time". Again, UND discourages it for the sake of helping out down the road in interviews, at least in the past when there was more competition for jobs.

Now, your instructor at both your previous school and at UND should know the difference between logging and acting PIC and how you can record that in your logbook, a minor detail in the grand scheme of the things, but since it was made as a point to bash UND I gather everyone thinks it is the end all be all so everyone everywhere better know it, not just at UND.

Of your 20 hours of flight time, how much ground dual, and solo time was there? I hope the hourly rate for a warrior hasnt jumped to 225 bucks an hour??
 

BIGRIG

Well-Known Member
Bigrig eluded to the fact you cannot log PIC in the Arrow, false again, the regs allow you to log PIC for flights where you are rated for category and class (single engine land) and are sole manipulator, so in the Arrow you can log PIC but cannot act as PIC, to distinct "loggings of time". Again, UND discourages it for the sake of helping out down the road in interviews, at least in the past when there was more competition for jobs.

Now, your instructor at both your previous school and at UND should know the difference between logging and acting PIC and how you can record that in your logbook, a minor detail in the grand scheme of the things, but since it was made as a point to bash UND I gather everyone thinks it is the end all be all so everyone everywhere better know it, not just at UND.
I just pulled out the FAR's and 61.51 (e)(1)(i) says that you can log PIC if you are rated. Does that include a complex endorsement? I took that to mean that you cannot log PIC until you are rated in the aircraft which includes being endorsed for complex?

I have interviewed at 3 airlines. None of them asked anything about my PIC and dual recieved.

The reason I bring this up is that people are going to airlines a lot quicker now and with a lot less hours. Some are even going to airlines straight out of college with 300 or less total hours. Some are also upgrading at these airlines right when they get their ATP's. I am not sure what the ICAO requirement is for captain, but you need a certain amount of PIC. You can only use half of your SIC time. This can lead to either you not being able to upgrade at your airline or getting a restriction about going into Canada or Mexico. This is the only reason I bring this up. 400A I hope you can help shed some light on this.
 

400A

New Member
Keep in mind BigRig, a complex endorsement is just that an endorsement, not a rating. You will never see "Complex" on the back of your certificate, like ASEL, AMEL, ASES, instrument airplane, etc. You can log the time as PIC, but you have to be "qualified" to ACT as PIC, an important distinction and in reality two different types of "PIC" time. I would bet dollars to doughnuts that if any kind of violation occured while an instructor was on board the student would quickly point to the CFI as the ACTING PIC (in the case of logging PIC during the 112 course)/.

It is a technical point not something that is a huge deal and I didn't mean to "pick" on you. Your post just had the most merit for a rebuttal.

I agree, the last few months PIC time with DUAL time probably not a big deal, it had been in the past thus UND "discouraged" it. Discouraged doesn't mean you CANNOT do it. With things slowing down as they have I understand everyones desire to have as much PIC time as possible to be competitive and everyone is more than welcome to log flight time in their own logbooks as allowed by the FARs.

I don't advocate for or against it, log time as you want and are allowed to.
 

BIGRIG

Well-Known Member
Yeah I realize that you are not picking on me. I am not sure that the student would point at the instructor as the PIC. I think the FAA would point to the instructor AND the private pilot in the left seat. At least thats what I can remember from studying aviation related law cases. It goes the same for PIC/SIC on an airline when a crew is violated.
 
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