How do they upgrade ?

Siberianflyer

Well-Known Member
Studyin' up with the Gleim ATP book last night and see you need 250 PIC time. So if these regionals are picking up these kids with 250-300 total, how are they ever going to upgrade. Airlines have some loophole to get them up to this? Can't imagine the unions would let the FO function as PIC for FO pay...:insane:
 
There is some Reg that allows you to log PIC as an SIC while being surpervised while performing the duties of the PIC. At least I think that is how it goes...
 
There is some Reg that allows you to log PIC as an SIC while being surpervised while performing the duties of the PIC. At least I think that is how it goes...

I know there is for "acting as PIC" when you get your CMEL as the initial, but I don't know for sure of any others. Incidentally, according to the FAA, that time doesn't even count towards the PIC requirement for your MEI.
 
I wonder what what'll happen when/if the FAA implements a "Multi-Crew Pilot's License." It'd probably "solve" this problem while farming about a billion others.
 
theres no shortcut to gaining experience. im not a big fan of these 300 hour whiz kids that get hired at a regional....
 
One of the guys in my groundschool was an IP at large regional before coming to Southernjets and you should hear some of the stories. Book smart, sharp as heck but the second you got 'off script', game over.

Of course, that's about how I felt in the cockpit procedures trainer today. I'll tell you all about that APU autoshutdown feature, but heavens to murgatroid if I can find the damned switch to turn the thing on.
 
One of the guys in my groundschool was an IP at large regional before coming to Southernjets and you should hear some of the stories. Book smart, sharp as heck but the second you got 'off script', game over.

Of course, that's about how I felt in the cockpit procedures trainer today. I'll tell you all about that APU autoshutdown feature, but heavens to murgatroid if I can find the damned switch to turn the thing on.

Random Snaggle#### reference, me likes. Snaggle#### the first openly gay character on tv! :laff:
 
I was one of those 400-hour "whiz kids" that so many speak of, and am now flying as a captain for a 121 carrier. I was concerned about the PIC requirement when it came time for upgrade, but after checking with our company and the FSDO, I found there is a waiver process that is approved for this sort of thing. Basically, it uses the time you fly as SIC in a 121 operation in place of the PIC time requirement. After all, the time you fly as an SIC should be time you are learning and molding yourself into a good captain.

Do not think this problem is only with low-time airline new-hires. This problem can occur as well for those hired with low-time in cargo, corporate or charter operations. Not everyone gets their start as a flight instructor, although I still believe that is one of the most rewarding positions a pilot can have: Teacher and mentor.

Even as a low-time hire myself, I am somewhat concerned about the current trend in airline hiring. It has nothing to do with the quantity of flight time, but rather the quality of flight time of the applicant, as well as their attitude. I also think there is a natural progression in the development of a pilot that directly relates to the type of airplane they fly, i.e. glass cockpit, conventional gauges, piston, turboprop, jet. There is just a certain way us humans can be better trained to conceptualize things, which is highly critical in the way pilots operate. But that is another discussion for another day, and I'll refrain from going down that road at the moment.

Remember, there have been many times in aviation when pilots were hired with little or no experience to fly sophisticated aircraft for that era. It can be done, but it needs to be done correctly. In all honesty, the biggest problem now is the one I alluded to earlier: The quality of the flight time of the applicant. So much time is spent worrying about developing an "airline" pilot that the whole "pilot" part is missed.
 
I also think there is a natural progression in the development of a pilot that directly relates to the type of airplane they fly, i.e. glass cockpit, conventional gauges, piston, turboprop, jet. There is just a certain way us humans can be better trained to conceptualize things, which is highly critical in the way pilots operate. But that is another discussion for another day, and I'll refrain from going down that road at the moment.

By all means, start another thread, then, please - I, for one, would be very interested in your thoughts on the above. I think a lot of other people would be, too.
 
I The quality of the flight time of the applicant. So much time is spent worrying about developing an "airline" pilot that the whole "pilot" part is missed.

That is kind of my problem. Most of my flying after getting my ratings (my last 400-500 hours has been spent teaching private pilots. I haven't really done any real world IFR stuff since I became a CFI. I have been fortunate enough to get experience in several very different parts of the country though and in the busiest airspaces out there. I do have my weak areas but so far my strong points have kept the clean side up.
 
Tim

Get you some instrument students and get out there. SOCAL is a good place to teach instrument approaches. The marine layer is usually only a few thousand feet thick and the bases are usually well above minimums. I've flown down to MYF everyday this week and has shot an approach everyday.
 
Tim

Get you some instrument students and get out there. SOCAL is a good place to teach instrument approaches. The marine layer is usually only a few thousand feet thick and the bases are usually well above minimums. I've flown down to MYF everyday this week and has shot an approach everyday.

I agree - I think some of the best preparation I had for 121 flying was going in and out of the LA basin in IMC conditions. The mix of the traffic, radio congestions, and weather combine to make a great training encvironment.
 
I don't think hiring low time pilots to act as SIC is that big of a deal. The captain is ultimately responsible for the safety of the flight, and if for some reason the captain becomes incapacitated, the SIC will have enough sim and real time experience to "step up to the plate" and get the plane on the ground safely. If they are that horrible of a pilot, won't they most likely wash out of training?
 
I don't think hiring low time pilots to act as SIC is that big of a deal. The captain is ultimately responsible for the safety of the flight, and if for some reason the captain becomes incapacitated, the SIC will have enough sim and real time experience to "step up to the plate" and get the plane on the ground safely. If they are that horrible of a pilot, won't they most likely wash out of training?

Except the FO is a required crew member. Why should the CA be doing the thinking for two people? Part of the issue is the increased workload on the CA. A guy that's been there, done that in some cases just in a smaller aircraft doesn't have to be "baby sat" like someone with 300 hours who's had an instructor make the tough calls for him. There are a few low time guys here that I pray to whatever diety I believe in this week don't wind up on a flight deck with an incapacitated CA. If they lock up on standard call outs on an instrument approach to mins, how do you think they're gonna react if the CA takes a dirt nap?
 
Except the FO is a required crew member. Why should the CA be doing the thinking for two people? Part of the issue is the increased workload on the CA. A guy that's been there, done that in some cases just in a smaller aircraft doesn't have to be "baby sat" like someone with 300 hours who's had an instructor make the tough calls for him. There are a few low time guys here that I pray to whatever diety I believe in this week don't wind up on a flight deck with an incapacitated CA. If they lock up on standard call outs on an instrument approach to mins, how do you think they're gonna react if the CA takes a dirt nap?

If they pass a training program, they have earned their seat. If they are locking up on call outs, something is wrong with the training system and not the pilot, as it should weed these kind of guys out. The captain is the PIC, the one who is ultimately responsible for the flight, not the FO.
 
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