Holding: When to start time outbound?

[wayne09]

Two questions to the forum please.
To simplify our discussion, let's focus on VOR holding only whereby abeam position is always identifiable.

(a) when do we start outbound time once established in the hold?
(b) when do we start outbound time on the initial entry (teardrop/parallel) ?

(a) everyone seems to know the answer is abeam or wings level, whichever occur last. However, where can we find this in the AIM ? according to AIM 5-3-7:

Outbound leg timing begins over/abeam the fix, whichever occurs later. If abeam position cannot be determined, start timing when turn to outbound is completed.

AIM is saying the latter of over or abeam, NOT wings level or abeam. Wings level only applies to scenarios where abeam position cannot be determined. Does that mean we always start time when abeam for VOR holding?
Referring to the first part of the sentence, how does "Over" enter into the picture. Wouldn't we always be over the fix first then abeam? can we think of a scenario where abeam will occur first, then over?

(b) Should we start the outbound time when initially crossing over the VOR? or wait until turn to outbound is completed before starting the time. It would be easier to start time AFTER we turn outbound, but where can we find this on the AIM.

Many Thanks.

 

[MikeD]

For the hold entry, timing is started over/crossing the fix outbound in the entry. This is where "over" comes in.....on the initial entry outbound.

Once established in the hold, timing is started when abeam the fix on the outbound leg. Or, when the turn is completed if abeam cant be determined. This is where "abeam" comes into play.

 

[ndakcfi]

Referring to the first part of the sentence, how does "Over" enter into the picture. Wouldn't we always be over the fix first then abeam? can we think of a scenario where abeam will occur first, then over?

Since the "over/abeam" is mentioned in the section discussing entering the holding pattern, I'd assume that "over" refers to when you start outbound timing for a teardrop or parallel entry, and "abeam" is when the timing starts on a direct entry.

As for when to start the outbound time when established in the hold (using the scenario you provided), the Instrument Flying Handbook shows the time being started when the TO/FROM flag flips abeam the VOR. During entries, timing is generally started upon crossing the VOR for a parallel, or when turned to the outbound heading for a teardrop entry.

 

[MikeD]

Since the "over/abeam" is mentioned in the section discussing entering the holding pattern, I'd assume that "over" refers to when you start outbound timing for a teardrop or parallel entry, and "abeam" is when the timing starts on a direct entry.

Thats what I said!

 

[wayne09]

Thanks for the quick response. For the initial entry, I've always been taught to start time when crossing over the VOR. However I've recently been told not to start time until after the turn is completed, reason being that if we start time immediately after crossing, we'll be 10 sec short for teardrop entry (30 degree turn), and for parallel entry we could end up 30 sec short (if we need to turn 90 degree to join for example).

According to the Instrument Flying Handbook (p.10-12), on initial entry we would turn to outbound first, then time. However AIM seems to state otherwise thus the confusion. I guess this is simliar to the debate on whether we should fly 4NM or 1 min on the initial entry for GPS holds.

 

[wayne09]

During entries, timing is generally started upon crossing the VOR for a parallel, or when turned to the outbound heading for a teardrop entry.

Are you saying that for teardrop, we turn first, then time.
For parallel, we can time and turn simultaneously.
what about parallel entry that requies more than 30 degree turn. should we turn first then time?

understand different people have different preferences, and wanted to know if there is some guidance from AIM.

 

[MikeD]

Are you saying that for teardrop, we turn first, then time.
For parallel, we can time and turn simultaneously.
what about parallel entry that requies more than 30 degree turn. should we turn first then time?

understand different people have different preferences, and wanted to know if there is some guidance from AIM.

Crossing the fix outbound on initial entry works fine. For the parallel, even if you are turning more than 30 degrees, the timing you lose isn't that significant. By the time you cross over the fix, you're likely already in your turn, and if you have to do a 90 degree turn to enter on a parallel, then why not just make it a direct entry? Then you don't have to worry about selling yourself short on distance gained for the course reversal, since you won't need one. It's kind of like measuring with a micrometer a maneuver that doesn't require that much precision. Even with a teardrop, you're not going to be making that drastic of a turn to where you have to worry about turning first, then timing.

Keep it simple; don't try to turn hold entries into rocket science.

 

[ndakcfi]

Are you saying that for teardrop, we turn first, then time.

understand different people have different preferences, and wanted to know if there is some guidance from AIM.

That's how it's worded in the Instrument Flying Handbook, but in the real world, starting the time when you cross the fix for a teardrop entry would probably work just fine.

Teaching teardrop entries with "turn, then time" provides consistency for the "5 T's" (turn, time, twist, throttle, talk) in holding patterns, but I've never heard of an examiner failing an instrument student for when they start time in a holding pattern unless they're significantly missing the inbound and outbound fixes.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Are you saying that for teardrop, we turn first, then time.
For parallel, we can time and turn simultaneously.
what about parallel entry that requies more than 30 degree turn. should we turn first then time?

understand different people have different preferences, and wanted to know if there is some guidance from AIM.

The 5 (or 6 or 8) Ts are a reminder/checklist of tasks that should be accomplished (or at least considered). They are not necessarily the order in which they should be accomplished. They are a training technique, not a rule.

Don't over-complicate. Situational awareness beats this level of detail every time.

I was trying to find an enforcement action in which someone went outbound for 1 minute 10 seconds instead of 1 minute. Couldn't.