Holding instruction

D

DonAlejandro

Well-Known Member
Have a friend who went to an interview and in the simulator they gave him the following holding instruction:
"hold on the 040 radial inbound"

His current heading is 030 and the fix is basically in front of him. He thinks that he is almost establish inbound and a direct entry into the hold is appropriate.

I think that he is mistaken... If they said hold on the 040-degree "radial" then he should be holding basically NE of the fix, 220-degrees inbound course.

What do our friends at ATC say?

I also believe that he has been confused with an instruction to hold over the fix 040-degrees inbound heading. Then he would be holding south of the fix and would make a direct entry from his 030 heading...

Please let me know your thoughts
Thank you
 
Your friend is mistaken. Holding inbound on the 040 radial is a 220 inbound heading. You can hold Northeast (right turns) or Southeast (left turns) so the holding clearance was incomplete.
It looks to me like you would use a teardrop entry if holding North and an outbound parallel entry if holding South.
Good job catching your friends oopsie...:)
 
I know this was in a simulator, but it sounds like this could happen in the real world if they are northeast of the airport maybe on a STAR and the terminal controller is trying to issue holding instructions without doing it all the time and/or knowing the correct instructions to give an aircraft. We normally would issue fixes, but not necessarily. (Example: "...hold on the inbound leg of the xxx arrival, left turns/right turns, xx mile legs. Expect further clearance at xxxx...") If this happened in the real world, I would expect a better clearance, but again busy terminal controllers don't issue holding instructions all the time. If we go into holding here it is because sh!& just hit the fan!
 
Moral of the story.....get a more detailed clearance and make sure you understand what they want. I read it as 040 radial, right turns since not specified. That's a teardrop entry, if heading 030 as you said.
 
CaptBill said:
Your friend is mistaken. Holding inbound on the 040 radial is a 220 inbound heading. You can hold Northeast (right turns) or Southeast (left turns) so the holding clearance was incomplete.
It looks to me like you would use a teardrop entry if holding North and an outbound parallel entry if holding South.
Good job catching your friends oopsie...:)
Click to expand...

Both of these should be "Hold Northeast," since both holding patterns are northeast of the Fix/NAVAID. Right turns would put you on the north side of the inbound holding course, left turns would put you on the south side, which I think is what you're saying here. I just wouldn't tell a pilot "Hold Southeast on the 040 radial" because it doesn't make sense to me. I'd say "Hold Northeast on the 040 radial, left turns etc."
 
FM_Weasel said:
Both of these should be "Hold Northeast," since both holding patterns are northeast of the Fix/NAVAID. Right turns would put you on the north side of the inbound holding course, left turns would put you on the south side, which I think is what you're saying here. I just wouldn't tell a pilot "Hold Southeast on the 040 radial" because it doesn't make sense to me. I'd say "Hold Northeast on the 040 radial, left turns etc."
Click to expand...
You're right, I was just trying to draw a visual picture for the OP with respect to the holding fix. Left turns would put you on the Southeast side of the radial, Right turns would put you on the Northeast side.

A proper clearance would read: N12345 is cleared to the ABC 040 degree radial to hold Northeast as published ( or turn directions if not published), your EFC time is 1234Z.
 
"N12345, cleared to ABC VOR, hold northeast on the 040 radial, 2 minute legs, expect further clearance 1234."

or

"N12345 ,cleared to ABC VOR, hold northeast on the 040 radial, left turns, 2 minute legs, expect further clearance 1234"

or if published:

"N12345, cleared to ABC VOR, hold northeast as published, expect further clearance 1234."

If the aircraft is already on course to the holding point, but holding instructions have not yet been issued:

"N12345, hold northeast of ABC VOR on the 040 radial, left turns, 2 minute legs, expect further clearance 1234."

or if published:

"N12345, hold northeast of ABC VOR as published, expect further clearance 1234."

Mileage can also be issued instead of minutes, for DME or RNAV aircraft. We have a lot of trainers here so I almost always use minutes because they're practicing their stopwatch skills.
 
CaptBill said:
Left turns would put you on the Southeast side of the radial, Right turns would put you on the Northeast side.
Click to expand...

Yeah but the instruction to "hold NE" means NE of the holding fix, not on the NE side of the radial.

Holding on the 040 radial with left turns would still be considered "holding NE" because you're NE of the VOR.
 
aviatorx43 said:
Yeah but the instruction to "hold NE" means NE of the holding fix, not on the NE side of the radial.

Holding on the 040 radial with left turns would still be considered "holding NE" because you're NE of the VOR.
Click to expand...


Hello everybody!!!, I am quite aware that to hold NE is a hold NE of the fix not the radial. Now that we've got that straight. :bang:

Again, I was trying to explain to the OP by drawing a visual picture of where the hold would take place. If you hold on the (North Side) (Upper Side) (Top Side) (Northeast Side) of the radial, it will be right turns. If you hold on the (South Side) (Bottom Side) (Lower Side) (Southeast Side) of the radial, it will be left turns. It's a visual depiction of what he's doing and has nothing to do with the clearance. You can pick whatever words you like to use in lieu of the one's I chose.

Perhaps instead of finding fault with my word-ology or the way I choose to explain it, perhaps you can share your own knowledge and advice to the OP since it's his question.

I already passed the holding questions on my oral.
 
aviatorx43 said:
It kind of peeves me that this was a sim interview/training scenario. How is the poor guy supposed to get a fair evaluation when the trainer/interviewer can't even get his instructions right??
Click to expand...
Maybe the goal of the training scenario is to see if the pilot is wise enough to ask for complete holding instructions?
 
I would definitely ask for a proper clearance, I hate instructors who, because you are in a sim, oversimplify things for the sake of "that'll do". I practically failed a sim the other day because I was instructed to hold, via a proper clearance, then to head direct to the SKBO VOR and shoot the VOR 13R. I told my copilot to ask for 12000ft as it is the IAF altitude. Sim instructor goes "nah you're good at 14000". This is the end of the session, I'm tired so I go well ok, the approach is long, we'll be stabilized at 1000ft. Request approach clearance, he goes yeah you're good. Long story short : "why did you pass the VOR at 14000ft ?"... We had a pretty strong argument about professionalism. You shouldn't accept half-assed clearances, like you would not flying in real life.
 
Call me stupid but wouldn't it be easier to do a parallel? You're already on a heading of 030 which is only 10 degrees from your inbound radial. My personal opinion I guess. Am I wrong?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top