Hijab and the cockpit

ILSstud

Well-Known Member
I ran across this picture and thought it was interesting to say the least. I suppose on one side you can say "how progressive they are letting a woman fly in the cockpit..." on the other side (all cultural understandings aside) seeing a woman in a hijab in this particular kind of environment makes me especially angry. Until men in these nations actually wear one of these in 120 degree heat and tell me how liberating it is, I won't buy the argument that women particularly enjoy wearing these. Thoughts?

*Mods, wasn't sure if this should go in the Lav or the General Topics section, feel free to move as necessary :)

1772611.jpg
 
I've asked a Muslim woman about it before, and she told me it was liberating for her, because people weren't objectifying her for her looks. In her mind, she was valued for her skills and intelligence and not simply for her looks.

In my neighborhood, there are quite a few Muslim women. Some are progressive and sometimes wear hoodie sweatshirts with the hood pulled up instead of a hijab. There are a lot of Somali women who wear full body wraps, but at the same time, you've got some Somali men who wear "imama," which is their version of the khaffiyah.

From a western perspective, it seems completely illogical to want to wear one. However, if you speak to a Muslim woman wearing one, you'll get a compelling argument.

The Quran says women have to dress modestly, so from that perspective, it's really no different than any other religious rule commanded in the Bible. Part of why they follow it is because they believe it's a rule from their religion.

But in addition to having women dress modestly, the Quran also prescribed specific rules for women's inheritance and the care of orphans and widows. In the Middle Ages, when women were excluded the rites of succession and could not own property in the West, the Muslim culture seemed pretty progressive by comparison, where women could inherit and own property and were guaranteed certain rights in society.

In our Western view, it seems archaic and illogical, but if you go and speak to a Muslim woman wearing a hijab, you'll hear from their point-of-view a completely rational and logical explanation of why they do.
 
It seems to be Mahan Air, of Iran.

I don`t see nothing wrong with that, it`s not a United cockpit, it`s their home their plane they can do what they want!

Having been in the middle east I can tell you most of them wear it because they want to, they have nothing to hide most of them are really beautiful.
 
I ran across this picture and thought it was interesting to say the least. I suppose on one side you can say "how progressive they are letting a woman fly in the cockpit..." on the other side (all cultural understandings aside) seeing a woman in a hijab in this particular kind of environment makes me especially angry. Until men in these nations actually wear one of these in 120 degree heat and tell me how liberating it is, I won't buy the argument that women particularly enjoy wearing these. Thoughts?

*Mods, wasn't sure if this should go in the Lav or the General Topics section, feel free to move as necessary :)

1772611.jpg

Everybody brings their own cultural baggage to the table. This hijab is worn for reasons of modesty. To some women (and I make no attempt to speculate on what the one in this particular image may think about it) not wearing one would make them feel naked, or unguarded. Like wearing a bikini around on the flight deck. Now, I don't know about this particular instance, or this particular airline, or if its required, or not, however, your culture cannot and should not impose ideological and or philosophical constraints onto another. Its apples and oranges. Would the woman feel comfortable wearing less than the hijab? I dunno, ask her. But instead, we feel obligated to rail against Arab and Islamic society to show how they are, "bad," when compared for us.

You've got to remember, this whole western-world-is-more-progressive-than-Islam paradigm is one that is based on half-truths and rumors, typically ones spread by people with an agenda. If you really want to understand how the hijab works, don't listen to stereotypes and what you think based on your interpretation of the world, go out and talk to Muslims who will tell you what they think about it. Its their culture, not yours, don't try to tell them what to do with it.
 
Everybody brings their own cultural baggage to the table. This hijab is worn for reasons of modesty. To some women (and I make no attempt to speculate on what the one in this particular image may think about it) not wearing one would make them feel naked, or unguarded. Like wearing a bikini around on the flight deck. Now, I don't know about this particular instance, or this particular airline, or if its required, or not, however, your culture cannot and should not impose ideological and or philosophical constraints onto another. Its apples and oranges. Would the woman feel comfortable wearing less than the hijab? I dunno, ask her. But instead, we feel obligated to rail against Arab and Islamic society to show how they are, "bad," when compared for us.

You've got to remember, this whole western-world-is-more-progressive-than-Islam paradigm is one that is based on half-truths and rumors, typically ones spread by people with an agenda. If you really want to understand how the hijab works, don't listen to stereotypes and what you think based on your interpretation of the world, go out and talk to Muslims who will tell you what they think about it. Its their culture, not yours, don't try to tell them what to do with it.

:clap:
 
I suppose that is true...all of your points are valid....

Either way I thought it was an interesting picture to pop up...
 
Its their culture, not yours, don't try to tell them what to do with it.

On the contrary, when someone goes through security or gets a government ID I think its ok for us to tell them what to do. Regardless if it's against their culture to wear something or not. Religion should not trump security in any environment.

Now back to the topic and the picture. The only issue I have with her wearing it in the cockpit is the fact that she has her earphones over her hajib and maybe the loss of peripheral vision. I'd think she'd probably hear better with it underneath her hajib. But I'm gonna assume the wearing of the hajib is trumping the concern for muffled/unheard radio calls or the effect on her peripheral vision.
 
I suppose that is true...all of your points are valid....

Either way I thought it was an interesting picture to pop up...


and i think no one of that religion or culture particularly cares about your feelings. How about you mind your own business.
 
Everybody brings their own cultural baggage to the table. This hijab is worn for reasons of modesty. To some women (and I make no attempt to speculate on what the one in this particular image may think about it) not wearing one would make them feel naked, or unguarded. Like wearing a bikini around on the flight deck. Now, I don't know about this particular instance, or this particular airline, or if its required, or not, however, your culture cannot and should not impose ideological and or philosophical constraints onto another. Its apples and oranges. Would the woman feel comfortable wearing less than the hijab? I dunno, ask her. But instead, we feel obligated to rail against Arab and Islamic society to show how they are, "bad," when compared for us.

You've got to remember, this whole western-world-is-more-progressive-than-Islam paradigm is one that is based on half-truths and rumors, typically ones spread by people with an agenda. If you really want to understand how the hijab works, don't listen to stereotypes and what you think based on your interpretation of the world, go out and talk to Muslims who will tell you what they think about it. Its their culture, not yours, don't try to tell them what to do with it.


well said. I am a muslim and i couldnt have said it better my self. :clap:
 
On the contrary, when someone goes through security or gets a government ID I think its ok for us to tell them what to do. Regardless if it's against their culture to wear something or not. Religion should not trump security in any environment.

Absolutely not. I'm not a religious person at all, but freedom of religion and freedom to be who you are absolutely trumps security. Your outlook is what's caused the downhill slide of civil liberties post-9/11.
 
On the contrary, when someone goes through security or gets a government ID I think its ok for us to tell them what to do. Regardless if it's against their culture to wear something or not. Religion should not trump security in any environment.

Now back to the topic and the picture. The only issue I have with her wearing it in the cockpit is the fact that she has her earphones over her hajib and maybe the loss of peripheral vision. I'd think she'd probably hear better with it underneath her hajib. But I'm gonna assume the wearing of the hajib is trumping the concern for muffled/unheard radio calls or the effect on her peripheral vision.

Your first paragraph is somewhat of a non sequitor, but I'll bite. For one, if that's what you think, then you need to really examine within yourself and determine whether you'd like it if someone told you what you could and could not wear or do because of security issues. If I were the TSA, I'd have everybody come onto the plane naked. That way they couldn't possibly hide anything of any kind in their garments. If that were the policy though, you can bet that people who value our culture-which says to be modest you have to wear some clothing, and that clothing has to cover both your genitals and your upper torso-would be up in arms. The issuance of government ID, or the requirement to submit to a security screening, thankfully, in this country doesn't require that you dress in a particular way. However, we seem to think that we can require it of Muslims, and various other peoples because of our xenophobic fear of a culture that is drastically different than, and in many ways at odds with, our own.

To put this in perspective, I've worn longsleeve shirts and pants, as well as big jackets and hats through the security screening checkpoints. I've worn parkas through security. I have every right to (it was friggin' cold too). Why should a woman be forced remove her headscarf at these points when an American man wearing a ball cap (me), or a skull cap be allowed through without any harassment? So to say that somehow a hijab is somehow a threat to security, especially when if any additional screening is required, the woman may have a private screening with another woman is illogical.

Now, let's address your other paragraph. I've flown in airplanes that were loud and worn earplugs underneath my headset to protect my hearing, and the only reason I ever missed a radio call was inattention (read fatigue) or preoccupation (read task saturation). A rayon headscarf of sub-millimeter thickness isn't going to block out enough sound to be a safety hazard. And god forbid that anyone on this forum has ever listened to music in flight! THE HORROR!

Second, the issue of peripheral vision. This may be a valid point, however, I don't think its a particularly compelling one. Could there potentially be some sort of reduction in peripheral vision because of the way the scarf was wrapped? Sure, but I doubt it, have you ever even seen someone who wore a headscarf? Its not a burkha, their eyes are completely uncovered. I think the burden of proof would be on you on this one. If you come back with a legitimate, and entirely non-anecdotal study saying that the hijab causes reductions in peripheral vision that are unsafe for flying I'll change my tune.

However, speaking of anecdotes, when I was flying up north, I wore many large jackets. And on one day in particular, the heater (which didn't work too well anyway) broke about half way back from my destination. The airplane's door seals leaked like a sieve, s for that .4 on the way back, I had my hoody up over my head and synched down tight and a large polar jacket over that. On top of it all, a beanie. I noticed no reduction in peripheral vision.
 
Everybody brings their own cultural baggage to the table. This hijab is worn for reasons of modesty. To some women (and I make no attempt to speculate on what the one in this particular image may think about it) not wearing one would make them feel naked, or unguarded. Like wearing a bikini around on the flight deck. Now, I don't know about this particular instance, or this particular airline, or if its required, or not, however, your culture cannot and should not impose ideological and or philosophical constraints onto another. Its apples and oranges. Would the woman feel comfortable wearing less than the hijab? I dunno, ask her. But instead, we feel obligated to rail against Arab and Islamic society to show how they are, "bad," when compared for us.

You've got to remember, this whole western-world-is-more-progressive-than-Islam paradigm is one that is based on half-truths and rumors, typically ones spread by people with an agenda. If you really want to understand how the hijab works, don't listen to stereotypes and what you think based on your interpretation of the world, go out and talk to Muslims who will tell you what they think about it. Its their culture, not yours, don't try to tell them what to do with it.

Wow Pat.

I'm impressed.

Good on you.
 
Everybody brings their own cultural baggage to the table. This hijab is worn for reasons of modesty. To some women (and I make no attempt to speculate on what the one in this particular image may think about it) not wearing one would make them feel naked, or unguarded. Like wearing a bikini around on the flight deck. Now, I don't know about this particular instance, or this particular airline, or if its required, or not, however, your culture cannot and should not impose ideological and or philosophical constraints onto another. Its apples and oranges. Would the woman feel comfortable wearing less than the hijab? I dunno, ask her. But instead, we feel obligated to rail against Arab and Islamic society to show how they are, "bad," when compared for us.

You've got to remember, this whole western-world-is-more-progressive-than-Islam paradigm is one that is based on half-truths and rumors, typically ones spread by people with an agenda. If you really want to understand how the hijab works, don't listen to stereotypes and what you think based on your interpretation of the world, go out and talk to Muslims who will tell you what they think about it. Its their culture, not yours, don't try to tell them what to do with it.

This - As long as it doesn't interfere with the performance of one's duties. (I'd want the headset inside on account of "You need to be able to hear!") The Company, though, has the right to dictate what you can and cannot wear. I note the presence of stripes on that garment - looks like the official uniform - that's fine, as long as the regulators don't see a SAFETY problem with it.

Recently down at Dismal Land, a Muslim woman was terminated for failure to wear the prescribed clothing for her job...the LA Times has the story. The story. She's suing now - and I don't know which way it's going to go, either. :dunno:
 
You've got to remember, this whole western-world-is-more-progressive-than-Islam paradigm is one that is based on half-truths and rumors, typically ones spread by people with an agenda.

Not entirely true. It depends on what subject, in particular, is being talked about. In some ways yes, in some ways no. While there are ways they aren't more "progressive" than the west, there have been middle-east nations that were darn-near as progressive as the west, namely Iran prior to the fall of the Shah.

Still, as mentioned, if there's no safety problem with wearing a particular religious garment, then its good to go IMO.
 
Not entirely true. It depends on what subject, in particular, is being talked about. In some ways yes, in some ways no. While there are ways they aren't more "progressive" than the west, there have been middle-east nations that were darn-near as progressive as the west, namely Iran prior to the fall of the Shah.

Still, as mentioned, if there's no safety problem with wearing a particular religious garment, then its good to go IMO.

You're obviously biased, you I-Ranian piece of...I-Ranian!!!

:)
 
<comment removed>

How about you raise it up a notch and think before you make such an ignorant statement as you just did? I'm sure many wish to "understand" difference viewpoints of other person's religion and even respect those difference?

I would conjecture to say from ILSstud's initial comment he thought the young lady was FORCED to wear the attire on the flight deck. Ppragman and others provided the perspective that maybe the attire wasn't mandatory but a choice she made for herself. (Excellent perspective as well, ppragman) So TopGunn, who are you to criticize his perspective as being wrong if he perceived an injustice regarding what she MIGHT be MADE to wear?

Educate first . . .in any religion or culture, that should come before insult.
 
Its their culture, not yours, don't try to tell them what to do with it.


That is true, but then it should only be fair to not allow the institution of Sharia law in western countries, as some factions of Muslims want, to the extreme of waging Jihad to accomplish that.

After all, it's our culture, they shouldn't be telling us what to do with it.

When I'm in the Middle East, I respect their law and customs and don't flaunt my Christianity. All I ask for is the same restraint and considersions from others in my own country.
 
<comment removed>


Umm... Where to start. If he is misinformed, uneducated, or ignorant of that religion or culture and you have something to share, how about you enlighten all of us instead of having a piss-poor attitude? If you wanna yell "freedom of religion" then I'm going to yell "freedom of speech" and he can post all the damn pictures he wants of the lady wearing a hijab.


How about you raise it up a notch and think before you make such an ignorant statement as you just did? I'm sure many wish to "understand" difference viewpoints of other person's religion and even respect those difference?

I would conjecture to say from ILSstud's initial comment he thought the young lady was FORCED to wear the attire on the flight deck. Ppragman and others provided the perspective that maybe the attire wasn't mandatory but a choice she made for herself. (Excellent perspective as well, ppragman) So TopGunn, who are you to criticize his perspective as being wrong if he perceived an injustice regarding what she MIGHT be MADE to wear?

Educate first . . .in any religion or culture, that should come before insult.

:yeahthat:
 
That is true, but then it should only be fair to not allow the institution of Sharia law in western countries, as some factions of Muslims want, to the extreme of waging Jihad to accomplish that.

After all, it's our culture, they shouldn't be telling us what to do with it.

When I'm in the Middle East, I respect their law and customs and don't flaunt my Christianity. All I ask for is the same restraint and considersions from others in my own country.

I agree with this, Sharia law has no place in the US, we have a separation of church and state here to some extent. That said, I don't honestly see a wide spread Muslim plot to institute sharia law in America. I see a few fringe groups trying to- which incidentally isn't all that different from a few groups here in the States trying to make in-school prayer mandatory and other trivialities. Each cultural group will have its own fringe elements that its opponents will have a difficult time differentiating from the whole.
 
Just to add some thought to this argument. How do you guys feel about women being allowed to walk through the streets of major US cities topless? Before you answer, keep in mind that many of the topless women will be of the old out of shape category. Would you be for that? Telling women they have to cover their hair, or their breasts both seem somewhat ridiculous to me. Though I'm sure there are a lot of right wingers who hate hijabs that would also be offended if grandmothers started walking through the park topless.


IMHO, most cultural norms based on sexuality are stupid, the hijab included. If you want to wear it knock yourself out. If someone is forcing you to wear it, that's a whole 'nother issue.
 
Back
Top