Grrr - Bombardier

BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
BOMBARDIER HAS MADE SIGNIFICANT CHANGES TO THE AIRPLANE
FLIGHT MANUAL. THIS IS BOMBARDIER’S RESPONSE TO ISSUES
WITH THE AIRCRAFT. THE TWO PRIMARY ISSUES ARE ACCIDENTS
AND INCIDENTS ON CL-65 AIRCRAFT AS A RESULT OF AIRFRAME
ICING AND FLAP FAILURES. DUE TO THESE CHANGES WE AT *****
ARE REQUIRED TO MAKE CHANGES IN THE WAY WE OPERATE THE
AIRCRAFT. WE HAVE ADDRESSED THESE CHANGES WITH TWO POH
BULLETINS. BULLETIN 09-08 ADDRESSES THE ISSUES OF AIRFRAME
ICING AND IS VALID FOR BOTH AIRCRAFT. THE ICING CHANGES
HAVE ALSO BEEN INCORPORATED IN THE 2008-2009 ANNUAL
DE-ICE TEST. BULLETIN 10-08 ADDS A NEW SPEED DEVELOPED BY
BOMBARDIER TO ADDRESS THE FLAP FAILURES IN THE CRJ-200.
THE SPEED IS VFO. THIS IS THE MAXIMUM SPEED THAT YOU CAN
EXTEND THE FLAPS. WHEN SELECTING FROM FLAPS 0 TO FLAPS 8
THE MAX SPEED IS 200 KIAS. WHEN SELECTING FROM FLAPS 8 TO
FLAPS 20 THE MAX SPEED IS 200 KIAS. THIS IS ONLY FOR THE
CRJ-200.
So basically, because several operators decided to take off with out first deicing the airframe AND neglected to use wing ice when the conditions required it AND rotated somewhere in the neighborhood of 7 degrees per second (3 is the recommended) we now get new ice procedures.

But it gets better. Because Bombardier used a cheap component in the flexshaft that drives the flaps we now are speed restricted 30 knots below the max operating speed of the flaps. The problem of course is the spoiler panels on the wings are so damn small that they really don't do much more than make some noise and are completely ineffective at slowing the plane down. Dumping the flaps to 8 degrees at 220 was the quickest way to start getting slowed down. But now instead of fixing the problem (with the flex shaft) Bombardier is putting a bandaid on it by creating this Vfo which is the max airspeed during flap movement and limits us to 200 knots.

GRRR.
 

ZapBrannigan

Old School
Guess you'll have to plan ahead to slow down. ;) I've never been a big fan of spoilers anyway. Spoiler use is indicative of poor planning -- or so my DC9 IOE instructor told me years ago as he swatted at my hand.

Won't be a problem for you...but you'll have to watch the newbies.
 

EDUC8-or

Well-Known Member
Bombardier was scrambling to make changes before this winter. We had all of our procedures in line, approved by the feds, and ready to hit the presses when they came out with more changes (like the wings on prior to T/O 5 degrees C and below even if there isn't a cloud within 1000 miles.)

Just be happy when you're flying the 700 and you can still extend the flaps to 8 and 20 at 230, there was talk about about lowering the 700 speeds as well for commonality, but that has the potential for way too much spoiler use. I'd like to see us raise the gear speeds in the 200 back up to 250, but that would cause us to configure off schedule. I'd rather use the gear when we get slam dunked instead of throwing the boards out and forgetting they've been deployed.
 

Trip7

Well-Known Member
Guess you'll have to plan ahead to slow down. ;) I've never been a big fan of spoilers anyway. Spoiler use is indicative of poor planning -- or so my DC9 IOE instructor told me years ago as he swatted at my hand.

Won't be a problem for you...but you'll have to watch the newbies.
Thats what I've been told as well.
 

SpiraMirabilis

Possible Subversive
I guess spoiler use is like increasing the condition levers to max on the Dash. It will slow you down dramatically.
Here, use of that before landing checks is called using the 'pansy levers' except its another P word besides pansy that means a similar thing.
 

BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
That's the problem though. The spoilers don't do anything, so while it will increase their use, mostly it just means that you are going to have to slow down earlier, or people are going to slow to late and what ever compression ATC was working with are going to go out the window. Not a big deal in most places, but when you consider the majority of our operations are out of Charlotte where they can't move traffic, it's going to be a mess.
 

AMH

Well-Known Member
We've been asked to slow to 200 before flaps 8 whenever possible because of this. Flaps fail and no flap landings have the been the top emergency being declared in the 200. It's difficult when you get slam dunked to slow down to that speed. Using gear just below 250 will usually give a 'gear disagree' message because the engine driven pumps are the only hydraulics working with flaps at zero. It's just not enough pressure. Though I'm glad bombardier has found a solution for the flaps. :sarcasm:
 

MusketeerMan

Well-Known Member
Spoilers are there to be used...as my dad would say...that's hogwash if you're told to not use them!!!

Sometimes it's poor planning on my part, but as we all know, it's usually due to being kept high someplace remote by ATC. I know at least the plane I fly is tough to get down and slow down without throwing out the gear, but about half the spoilers are pretty effective and very quiet in the back...

-Proud Spoiler User :D
 

Jason

Well-Known Member
I find this thread very indicative of the differences in the airline vs. corporate operating culture. Airline guys tend to think that you NEED to put the flaps out right at 230 due to the way the airline procedures tend to be written. I've been on both sides, I have several thousand hours in the CL65 and I have several thousand hours in the Challenger series (mostly in the 604 but the 600 and 601 also) - the system is the same in the 604 as it is in the RJ yet we don't usually see flap fails in the 604 fleet. Why? Probably because the corporate guys aren't throwing them out at right at max speed. Should the component be able to withstand the repeated stress of operating the flaps at the published max speed? Yes. Without a doubt. No argument from me on that one but come on, 30 knots isn't that big of a deal. Having been based at DTW in the RJ, I've been slammed dunked with the best of them but flaps aren't the only way to manage the energy of the jet.
 

ZapBrannigan

Old School
I have no doubt that both you and ATC will adapt and overcome. I wouldn't yank on the spoiler handle every time you need to slow. Just fly the airplane normally and ATC will, over time, learn to accept the "new" performance for the airplane.

The CRJ is by no means the most slippery airplane in the sky. There are others that cover significant landscape to slow.

I suggest you duct-tape the spoiler handle down so your colleagues don't touch it. :sarcasm:
 

ZapBrannigan

Old School
I find this thread very indicative of the differences in the airline vs. corporate operating culture. Airline guys tend to think that you NEED to put the flaps out right at 230 due to the way the airline procedures tend to be written.
Fly the airplane as if you own it. Why subject the flap mechanism to max air loads on every flight. I personally slow to maneuvering speed for that configuration before selecting the next notch of flaps.
 

MusketeerMan

Well-Known Member
I used it once on my last trip...so it doesn't happen every leg, but if I need to use it, I know it's there...I don't fly the CRJ as well, so I can't compare to that. I only know what I fly..
 

ZapBrannigan

Old School
If you pull the power to idle, and maintain altitude for a minute or so, the airplane will slow down.

You have no idea how many people forget basic airmanship and decide the best technique is to DIVE first and slow later. Crazy! Slow to your speed, then descend. It'll work a whole lot better and be smoother for the folks who pay the bills.

And if you're unable to make the restriction that ATC asks for it only takes one transmission to say "unable". If they don't like it they'll turn you. What do you care? You're getting paid by the minute.

Go-arounds pay more than landings. :)
 

EDUC8-or

Well-Known Member
I find this thread very indicative of the differences in the airline vs. corporate operating culture. Airline guys tend to think that you NEED to put the flaps out right at 230 due to the way the airline procedures tend to be written. I've been on both sides, I have several thousand hours in the CL65 and I have several thousand hours in the Challenger series (mostly in the 604 but the 600 and 601 also) - the system is the same in the 604 as it is in the RJ yet we don't usually see flap fails in the 604 fleet. Why? Probably because the corporate guys aren't throwing them out at right at max speed. Should the component be able to withstand the repeated stress of operating the flaps at the published max speed? Yes. Without a doubt. No argument from me on that one but come on, 30 knots isn't that big of a deal. Having been based at DTW in the RJ, I've been slammed dunked with the best of them but flaps aren't the only way to manage the energy of the jet.
Under normal operating circumstances I extend the flaps at the maneuvering speed. If I'm having a problem descending or get slam dunked I'll put the flaps out earlier to help get down. This saves fuel and MX costs. I'd say the majority of the guys at my company operate that way.
 

stuckingfk

Well-Known Member
That's the problem though. The spoilers don't do anything, so while it will increase their use, mostly it just means that you are going to have to slow down earlier, or people are going to slow to late and what ever compression ATC was working with are going to go out the window. Not a big deal in most places, but when you consider the majority of our operations are out of Charlotte where they can't move traffic, it's going to be a mess.
I beg to differ.

The spoilers work just fine in the 200. In fact I think they work really well compared to some airplanes.
 

deadstick

Well-Known Member
Which would cost the operators and Bombardier more money, getting a new part certified/fielded or a few pieces of paper? It's like the problem has been MELed by the manufacturer with a new "O" function.

They are reinventing the wheel instead of fixing it. Does this surprise anybody?
 

Baronman

Well-Known Member
.

You have no idea how many people forget basic airmanship and decide the best technique is to DIVE first and slow later. Crazy! Slow to your speed, then descend. It'll work a whole lot better and be smoother for the folks who pay the bills.
Basic airmanship is rare nowadays. Example, just as we're leveling off, Joe Pilot is bringing the nose down and power back, right then we get a climb clearance...Joe Pilot proceeds to add full power, without changing pitch. Plane proceeds to overspeed....Hello? Isn't this stuff taught in the first day of instrument training?

Oh..and the quote above is one of the best tidbits I learned from a great instructor. Slow first then go down..
 

Cheechako

Well-Known Member
This takes me back to a time ferrying a fresh C-checked RJ200 from Calgary to Salt Lake. We were cleared the visual abeam the numbers at 11,000' (7000' AFE). Spoilers out, maintain altitude, flaps on schedule, gear down, turned base and lowered the nose- got about 5000 fpm descent on base leg, fully configured, on speed, power up where it needed to be by 500'. Worked out nice. Granted, I would never do that with passengers aboard, they'd be hanging in their seat belts. It was safe, just not real confortable. The key is to slow down, then go down.

You'll probably see a lot of early gear extensions now with delayed flap extensions. I don't remember what the gear speed is on the RJ, but it'll sure slow you down.

Our procedures in the 737 say not to put the flaps out until within 10 kts of maneuver speed for the current flap setting. The first few flap settings are not very effective as drag, can't use speed brakes with any flaps out, so our only way of going down and slowing down is to drop the gear.
 

Polar742

All the responsibility none of the authority
One day ATC jammed me up in Seoul. I didn't even get the first flaps out until 15 miles from the field...:rolleyes:

I agree fully with Zap's techniques:

Guess you'll have to plan ahead to slow down. ;) I've never been a big fan of spoilers anyway. Spoiler use is indicative of poor planning -- or so my DC9 IOE instructor told me years ago as he swatted at my hand.
Fly the airplane as if you own it. Why subject the flap mechanism to max air loads on every flight. I personally slow to maneuvering speed for that configuration before selecting the next notch of flaps.
If you pull the power to idle, and maintain altitude for a minute or so, the airplane will slow down.

You have no idea how many people forget basic airmanship and decide the best technique is to DIVE first and slow later. Crazy! Slow to your speed, then descend. It'll work a whole lot better and be smoother for the folks who pay the bills.

And if you're unable to make the restriction that ATC asks for it only takes one transmission to say "unable". If they don't like it they'll turn you. What do you care? You're getting paid by the minute.
In my planning, I use 1 mile for every 10 knots I need to lose. If I'm descending, I add that to my 3:1. Works on all the jets I've flown.

Things I use the boards for: 1) When anti-ice is on and an minimum compressor speed must be maintained. 2) In the rare <cough, cough> instance my math may not be 100% correct.

I did fly with an FO in the good ol' 145 that used the boards every leg he flew. His descent profile: 310 kts to 10k, level off, open the boards, slow to 250 kts, stow boards, descent.

I asked about it, he gave some "reason", I suggested he might try a different technique, he rejected it and looked at me like I was a simian from outer space, I watched bad technique for a month, unwilling to change.

I was riding a jumpseat when I was going thru my first jet intial. I had a very cordial crew. They were giving me some great techniques and rules of thumb I use today. In regards to the boards, I was told "good twin jet drivers don't need speed brakes." I've learned that quad jet drivers don't either.

However, as always, if you need them, used them. Emphasis on NEED.

Again, $5 of my $.02
 

Lee D

Well-Known Member
I guess spoiler use is like increasing the condition levers to max on the Dash. It will slow you down dramatically.
Here, use of that before landing checks is called using the 'pansy levers' except its another P word besides pansy that means a similar thing.
Nice. I'll have to remember that for the Brasilia. :laff: Though it has been a very long time since I have seen anyone push the props to max before the gear or flaps are down.
 
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