meritflyer
Well-Known Member
What the heck does this phrase, "got flow", mean? I heard a C421 today ask center if LAX had flow. Controller came back and said yes.
Never heard it before.
Never heard it before.
Got Flow?
- Thread starter meritflyer
- Start date
It means that instead of just kicking the tires and lighting the fires and launching into the wild blue yonder some central place in the FAA will be assigning "wheels up" and "expect departure clearance" times to aircraft and you don't get to go until your time has been reached.
I'm sure somewhere the details are published, but my experience is:
"There's a ground stop, update at 15:30" means we don't when you're leaving and we won't know until at least 15:30 - and we'll only know then if the ground stop isn't extended.
"You have a EDCT of 15:30" means be ready to go at 15:30 but we actually have to call again when you are taxing for departure and get an actual time you can go. Hopefully that time will be sometime just after 15:30, but don't bet on it.
"Wheels up 15:30" means they told us that you can depart at 15:30, or 5 minutes before or after that time. So be ready - because if you're not ready and we have to call for another time who knows when it will be.
In theory this eliminates in air holding - and I suppose it does eliminate a lot of it - but I've ground stopped, EDCT'ed and then wheels uped and STILL been given en-route holding due to volume.
Flow is a term used to describe an arrival/departure delay at an airport. It can be caused by weather, construction, incidents, volume, etc...
Typically the ATIS for the affected airport advertises such delay as "flow control program in effect."
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Ground stops, ground delay programs (GDP), etc. . . amongst Airborne holds, all fall under the TMU (Traffic Management Unit within a enroute facility) that issues such "flow restrictions," aka flows.
The website below can give you up to date, usually to the minute, of current GS, GDPs, airspace flow programs, route advisories, etc.
http://www.fly.faa.gov/adv/advAdvisoryForm.jsp Of course at 00Z, there isn't going to be much. . . but be sure to check it out early in the mornings and through the afternoon pushes at our nations busy airports.
The website below can give you up to date, usually to the minute, of current GS, GDPs, airspace flow programs, route advisories, etc.
http://www.fly.faa.gov/adv/advAdvisoryForm.jsp Of course at 00Z, there isn't going to be much. . . but be sure to check it out early in the mornings and through the afternoon pushes at our nations busy airports.
http://www.fly.faa.gov/ois/ This website, similar to the one posted above, gives you up to the second information on the airspace status around the nation. It refreshes automatically every 5 minutes, and is very useful for Ops agents. 
Baronman
Well-Known Member
At Newark there is a position in the tower "Flow Control" which is used for departures when it gets real busy. Typically around 9am, 6pm and when there is weather effecting departures.
On the ATIS or on our Pre-Departure Clearance it will state when to call flow. Either, "Call flow prior to pushback, Call flow ready to taxi, call flow immediatly for taxi time."
Flow then sequences you for departure based on your proposed departure time and your first departure fix for spacing.
On the ATIS or on our Pre-Departure Clearance it will state when to call flow. Either, "Call flow prior to pushback, Call flow ready to taxi, call flow immediatly for taxi time."
Flow then sequences you for departure based on your proposed departure time and your first departure fix for spacing.
CapnJim
Well-Known Member
I means your wife is going to be psychotic for, like, a week, and there's nothing for it.
meritflyer
Well-Known Member
CRAP!!
The term "wheels up" is often used because people don't understand what EDCT means. The EDCT is the "wheels up" time.
Read the first article titled "Ground Delay Program (GDP) / Expect Departure Clearance Time (EDCT) Compliance" in this bulletin:
Air Traffic Bulletin Issue # 2002-06
Here's the last paragraph:
The EDCT is an "actual time" that you must strive to depart. Departing more than five minutes before or more than five minutes after the EDCT results in non-compliance with the program. It is the time of your departure that makes the particular flow control program work. There is a reason the word "Expected" is part of the definition, but it's not what you imply. The flow control program is predicated on when the FAA expects the flight to depart, not on the actual departure times. It's up to the airline, the crew, and ATC to turn the Expected time into an Actual time.
Here's a website that will "look up" EDCTs for airplanes:
Air Traffic Control System Command Center EDCT LOOKUP
Notice the current guidance in the notes:
and
Note the guidance doesn't mean the EDCT is not a time when you will find out when they want you to go, it is the time they want you to depart, i.e., takeoff. The recommendation is to confirm the EDCT.
Short Version, Bottom Line: EDCT = "Wheels Up"
.
Lee D
Well-Known Member
Rats. . . You beat me to it.
I friend of mine has four daughters. (All less than ten.) GOT FLOW will take on a new meaning in a few years when they all start to mature. Poor guy, between his wife and daughters, he will have to lock himself in the shed for a week when that time happens.
Sorry to hijack the thread.
Chris_Ford
Well-Known Member
And here I am thinking this is some sort of rap related thread.
I used to think that too, and the documentation you quote is all well and good.
However - when I've been given an EDCT at a number of airports I have asked them if that's a wheel up time, and the say "no, we've got to call when you taxi out for a {slot, wheels up, departure} time". They use different words to describe what they're calling for.
Sometimes they call back on the taxi out and the EDCT is the wheels up, sometimes it gets moved, sometimes earlier, mostly later.
So your facts may well be right, but my experience is that an EDCT is somebodies "guess" at a wheels up, but don't take it to the bank.
This is Part 121 scheduled airline flying - it may well be different in the unscheduled world - I don't know.
The butchering of the terminology is widespread, and the fact that EDCTs change furthers the misunderstanding. The reason we have to contact (Metering/Clearance/Ramp Control/Ground/Whoever) prior to pushback is that gives them a chance to confirm the EDCT. An updated EDCT may even come across the wire as we're taxiing. They change.
If we had internet access from the cockpit, we could access the page I linked above and check our own EDCT. That time is updated based on what's actually happening in the system. If the EDCT is based on arrival delays at Airport XYZ and the weather gets worse and the traffic is backed up even more, then the EDCT will likely be pushed back. If the weather clears and there's suddenly plenty of room for arrivals, the EDCT may be pushed forward. The design of the system is to adjust for conditions - - it has to be fluid.
What is supposed to happen at the EDCT, plus or minus 5 minutes?
You're supposed to depart.
.
If we had internet access from the cockpit, we could access the page I linked above and check our own EDCT. That time is updated based on what's actually happening in the system. If the EDCT is based on arrival delays at Airport XYZ and the weather gets worse and the traffic is backed up even more, then the EDCT will likely be pushed back. If the weather clears and there's suddenly plenty of room for arrivals, the EDCT may be pushed forward. The design of the system is to adjust for conditions - - it has to be fluid.
What is supposed to happen at the EDCT, plus or minus 5 minutes?
You're supposed to depart.
.
Part of the problem is the term "wheels up". It ain't standard phraseology and shouldn't be used. What you may mean by it might not be what I mean. "Hard Time" is another term that gets used and adds nothing.
An Expected Departure Clearance Time is issued by the command center and applies to a particular airport. It's supposed to meter the flow. problem is, flights get cancelled or delayed and they're constantly "rippling" the list and changing the times. Airlines also do swapping of times to meet schedules. When the tower gives you an EDCT, they have no way of knowing if it will change. No point asking me "Is that a hard time, is that a wheels up?" It's an EDCT. That's it. And it means you should EXPECT to depart in the window 5 minutes before to 5 minutes after. But yeah, they change a lot. Complain to the command center, not the tower.
A DSP (departure spacing program) time is what we often have to get when you taxi out. It's issued by the center overlying us, and it can be for an airport, an airway, route, etc. We ask for a release time, and they either approve it or give us a different one. DSP's have NOTHING to do with EDCT's. In fact, if you have an EDCT, you're SUPPOSED to be exempt from DSP's. But like I said, the local center does DSP, and the command center does EDCT's. The center often adds DSP requirements onto an EDCT. And sometimes the DSP release time will be outside the EDCT window. Seems to defeat the purpose, doesn't it? If you think that's crazy, try working ground at a busy airport when you have to sequence everyone to meet the times, as if you can predict the future! So when you taxi out with your EDCT, and they say they ALSO need a "wheel's up time" (I hate that term), you likely have a DSP requireemnt also. The windows for DSP depends on an agreement between the tower and center. Ours are 2 minutes before to 3 minutes after. Might be different elsewhere. Sometimes we call for a DSP and it results in a 30 minute delay, pilot bitches about not being told aheasd of time. Guess what? We didn't know ahead of time, either. Complain to the center when you get into their airspace.
Intrails are restrictions over a route or airway or fix, or to an airport. We don't need a window or release, but need xx minutes between affected planes. Example, 8 minutes intrail over MHT means if you're over MHT, you're at least 8 minutes after the last one. Not hard, but if there are 4 of them already ahead of you, you're getting al least a 30 minute delay!
Hope this helps. EDCT's tells you to EXPECT something. It behooves you to check with the tower or your ops to see if it's still the same. They often change.
DSP's are releases we need to call for. Gone are the days we could just taxi you out and clear you for take off. All the airlines complaints about fuel consumption, and the FAA's building of the traffic management kingdom have resulted in this.
Wheels up? Hard time? Ask me and I'll tell you I have no idea what you're talking about.