Good opportunity or abuse?

[Polar742]

It's completely up to you. If I'm needed for legalities and/or insurance, then I want to be paid. When I had 550 hours, I was right seat in a KA200 for insurance. I could NOT use the experience for any training or experience requirements, but I have it written down somewhere. I got paid really good money to do that. In my opinion an insurance right seater should get 250-500 dollars a day in a Citation, depending on their qualifications.

I did this too, just like falconvalley did. I wasn't a "required crewmember", but the passenger's insurance (be it key-man insurance or whatever) required 2 pilots.

I got paid. If this person is really your friend, even though he might have taken a different approach to skin the cat, he'll respect what you're doing and get you the time and get you paid.

If in doubt review calcapt's roundtable comments. They really are timeless truths for this industry, and he stated them very eloquently.

 

[ladder360]

Would you be flying for free? Meaning no compensation (money).

Further, are your qualified?

Third, if you would be flying for free, would you be flying and essentially doing a job that the company or flight department would otherwise need to hire a person for?

Maybe I missed the answers to the questions, but if you're going to be flying and end up doing the work for free when otherwise the flight department / company would need to actually hire a pilot then it's a no go in my opinion.

Never do someone else's job for free. People need to make a living, especially right now.

:yeahthat:

Also, with regard to your buddy not wanting to "give them a bill" for your services, it's my guess that they've ALWAYS paid for the SIC and expect it. Makes me think 1) your friend isn't being honest with you or, 2) He's telling the owner he can "save them a little money" by finding someone around the FBO to do it for free (in which case, he's doing his part at hurting the profession). Having said all that, I'd try to pry him for a bit more information - you may find that neither he nor the corporation or people you really want to work for -if in fact they're looking for someone to do it for free. Just my .02.

 

[MikeOH58]

Heres a little food for thought...In a couple weeks I will be going to King Air School, and within the next month be flying as the PIC. I've been PIC in the past as sole manipulator, but next month will be the first time I am 100% in charge, captain, designated PIC etc...

Do you think it matters that these are my first trips in this position? Absolutely not. When it comes down to it, it doesnt matter if its my first or 10,000th...

When i'm flying, whether its severe clear VFR, or icing and emergency's, my passengers expect me to be the best pilot they've ever had, and I will be paid accordingly.

It doesnt matter how much time you have...If your put in the seat, than you are to be paid. Personally, i'd be asking for $250-350/day if I were in your position as as someone without type training...Your not asking for a ridicilous amount, but your also not selling yourself short....

I mean at a mininum, How can you do these trips for anything less than you would make in a day as a CFI, plus some?

 

[flyinguitar]

Is this for Honey B corp? I know they operate a Citation and a Conquest on the west coast....

Nope, it's not Honey B corp. I think there are lots of Conquest/Citation duos out there!

That being said, 100-150/day would be a good salary, or $35/hr wouldn't be bad for an SIC slot either.

I mean at a mininum, How can you do these trips for anything less than you would make in a day as a CFI, plus some?

Funny, that's exactly the formula I used to come up with what I said my rate would be, which was $150. If all my students show up and fly as scheduled, that's what I make. I was worried I was asking too much; I'm glad to hear many folks here think it's way too little.

This isn't the regional airlines people who can afford a jet can afford to pay well.

Also, with regard to your buddy not wanting to "give them a bill" for your services, it's my guess that they've ALWAYS paid for the SIC and expect it.

A good friend of mine was an insurance-required SIC and he was paid $250 per day. So here is my question: Since they are required to use a second pilot, who are they using instead of you? They must obviously be using someone.

You might be surprised to find out that this company has a history of access to SICs that will fly for free. The person who is doing most of the SIC flying right now used to be an instructor at my flight school; he quit about a year ago, bought himself an A320 type rating, and tried to get in on the whole Asian Airline boom. It hasn't worked out for him so far, and he needs whatever flying he can find to stay current, so he's been willing to fly for no compensation. There have been others, too - I could tell that when I asked to be paid, it was a bit of a surprise for them.

I'm not so sure how involved the bosses are in the flight department. I get the impression they are very hands-off. My friend has stated that a big part of his job description is to "keep the bosses happy," so I think he is loathe to present them with any "extra" bills if he can avoid it, which he is currently able to do without much trouble. I can't imagine, however that the bosses wouldn't want to pay for the pilots who are flying them around and in whose hands they are trusting their lives.

When i'm flying, whether its severe clear VFR, or icing and emergency's, my passengers expect me to be the best pilot they've ever had, and I will be paid accordingly.

Excellent point. A very large part of our job as pilots is to be there when things go wrong. Given that I know my SIC checkout with this company would probably consist of the bare minimum required under 61.55, it's questionable whether I would really be qualified in the case of an engine fire, TR deployment, depressurization, or any of the other myriad emergencies that I don't regularly encounter teaching in Cessnas and Pipers.

If in doubt review calcapt's roundtable comments. They really are timeless truths for this industry, and he stated them very eloquently.

I read them a few days ago, and I agree, his comments were a stupendous piece of writing. I really hope to be able to make NJC next year!

you may find that neither he nor the corporation or people you really want to work for -if in fact they're looking for someone to do it for free. Just my .02.

The more I think about this situation, the more I think you're right. There's more I could say about this operation, but I think I'll just say the following: I'm happy with my job right now, and when the time is right to fly a jet, I'll be very excited to do it under proper professional circumstances.

 

[ppragman]

Low balling it will burn more bridges. Tell them you are worth more than $100 a day and you'll burn one bridge. Set the going rate for a Citation co-pilot at $100 a day and you'll piss off a lot of corporate pilots. If the going rate for a Citation co-pilot is $300 a day (which it is here) then you should charge atleast $300 a day whether you have 500 hours or 10,000 hours. This isn't the regional airlines people who can afford a jet can afford to pay well. SIC time in a Citation is not that important.

Alex.

I doubt it.

 

[KLB]

You might be surprised to find out that this company has a history of access to SICs that will fly for free. The person who is doing most of the SIC flying right now used to be an instructor at my flight school; he quit about a year ago, bought himself an A320 type rating, and tried to get in on the whole Asian Airline boom. It hasn't worked out for him so far, and he needs whatever flying he can find to stay current, so he's been willing to fly for no compensation. There have been others, too - I could tell that when I asked to be paid, it was a bit of a surprise for them.

This is an example of someone who is poorly educated on the aviation industry. This also shows why JC is so important. Why does he not go back to instructing? That way he's gaining experience and getting paid for it.

Pilots are pilots own worse enemies. Some of us seem to be willing to do anything to get ahead. Thats one of the things that I really dislike about this industry. I've seen this behavior from my flight training all the way up to where I am now. Some of us really don't understand that the things we do will effect others that are ahead and behind us.

 

[OldTownPilot]

The more I think about this situation, the more I think you're right. There's more I could say about this operation, but I think I'll just say the following: I'm happy with my job right now, and when the time is right to fly a jet, I'll be very excited to do it under proper professional circumstances.

That right there is the attitude to have with this whole deal. I'm sure it hurts right now, but all you can do is ask to be compensated for your work, and whatever happens, happens.

Just remember what these guys did to you, if you ever have the opportunity to 'help' them out.

 

[Baronman]

True, however, don't expect to get paid well. Someone earlier said that a CJ SIC was worth 250-500/day, ehh, nope, not in your shoes. At 1000TT or so, no turbine experience, and no CJ experience, you're almost an insurance burden to them. You'd be amazed at how expensive insurance actually is. That being said, 100-150/day would be a good salary, or $35/hr wouldn't be bad for an SIC slot either. Just don't burn any bridges by trying to highball your way into the right seat of a CJ, the time is more important for you, however, you do need to get paid.

I generally agree. I was in your position years ago, right around 9/11. There weren't turbine jobs going to just anyone with a wet Commercial license...That being said I was still building time instructing etc and had around 1000hrs, not enough to get where I wanted (an airline) but I felt like I was progressing.

Low and behold a turbine (King Air) gig was available at the airport. It sounds similar to yours. They needed a back up guy to go fly every once in a while. They did all in house training, gave me all the manuals and afternoon classes in their building. And yes, from the start they were paying me $100/day. I'd fly with them maybe once every 2 weeks, it wasn't my bread and butter job but it did feel like a step up. For the first time I was working in a multi-crew airplane, it was turbine, etc.

Would I have done it had they not payed me? Mmm...I probably would have gone on a few flights but not that many. Most of the days were early out (6am) only to fly an hour or two and sit all day and return later (6pm). Had I not been getting payed it wouldn't have been worth devoting a whole day to them.

 

[SteveC]

The more I think about this situation, the more I think you're right. There's more I could say about this operation, but I think I'll just say the following: I'm happy with my job right now, and when the time is right to fly a jet, I'll be very excited to do it under proper professional circumstances.

Excellent!

 

[IPad (10)]

I doubt it.

I didn't realize you had that much corporate expereince Right now this type of flying is how I make my money. There are a lot of other pilots who make their money this way, including some who live in the same area as the original poster. People who fly for free when I could be making $300-500 per day get a bad reputation. Not to sound arrogant, but when there is a job opening in my area I get a call about it. Even if I am not after the job, I am normally asked if there is any one I know who would be suitable for the job or they ask if I know the person they are considering.

There have now been two times where I have been asked about people who have screwed me in the past by "stealin ma job" as Eric Cartman would say. Neither got the job they were after. I am not saying that I said they were horrible people and eat babies, I simply said they were willing to undercut me, lowering the bar, and feel they are worth $0 per day. There have also numerous times where I could have recommended those people for very good jobs. They did not get my recommendation, people who stick to their guns and ask for what they are worth get my recommendation and normally end up getting the job.

Alex.

 

[ppragman]

I didn't realize you had that much corporate expereince Right now this type of flying is how I make my money. There are a lot of other pilots who make their money this way, including some who live in the same area as the original poster. People who fly for free when I could be making $300-500 per day get a bad reputation. Not to sound arrogant, but when there is a job opening in my area I get a call about it. Even if I am not after the job, I am normally asked if there is any one I know who would be suitable for the job or they ask if I know the person they are considering.

There have now been two times where I have been asked about people who have screwed me in the past by "stealin ma job" as Eric Cartman would say. Neither got the job they were after. I am not saying that I said they were horrible people and eat babies, I simply said they were willing to undercut me, lowering the bar, and feel they are worth $0 per day. There have also numerous times where I could have recommended those people for very good jobs. They did not get my recommendation, people who stick to their guns and ask for what they are worth get my recommendation and normally end up getting the job.

Alex.

If he doesn't tell anybody his wage they'll never know. And what's the smart ass remark at the beginning? I've met plenty of people who've flown at places for free, corporate and charter to get experience and moved on. I'm not saying that he should do it for free, however, I think that a wage comiserate with experience is definitely important. I strongly doubt that anybody will be angry at him if at 1000TT, he took a really part time job flying in the right seat of the CJ for $120-150/day, when his primary source of income can't hardly bring in $150/day. He's not taking a job from you. Would you take a job at a company, extremely part time in the right seat of the CJ that employed some right seaters for free, at a company that probably does not provide benes to the right seaters? I doubt it. Remember, everybody has to start somewhere, just because he starts at $150/day doesn't mean he'll stay there, nor does it mean that he's taking any work from you.

 

[OldTownPilot]

There is however a big difference between $150/day and free. From a professional standpoint I'd say its WAY bigger than the difference between 150 and 300 a day.

 

[IPad (10)]

If he doesn't tell anybody his wage they'll never know. And what's the smart ass remark at the beginning? I've met plenty of people who've flown at places for free, corporate and charter to get experience and moved on. I'm not saying that he should do it for free, however, I think that a wage comiserate with experience is definitely important. I strongly doubt that anybody will be angry at him if at 1000TT, he took a really part time job flying in the right seat of the CJ for $120-150/day, when his primary source of income can't hardly bring in $150/day. He's not taking a job from you. Would you take a job at a company, extremely part time in the right seat of the CJ that employed some right seaters for free, at a company that probably does not provide benes to the right seaters? I doubt it. Remember, everybody has to start somewhere, just because he starts at $150/day doesn't mean he'll stay there, nor does it mean that he's taking any work from you.

My "smartass remark" (it was not intended to be smartass) had to do with you not really knowing how corporate aviation works. Post what you have said at a website full of corporate pilots and there are not going too many people that would agree with you. That is especially true if the website has many people who make their living as contract pilots. I won't be angry at him if he took a job paying $120 a day, but I would be dissapointed. Pay should not be low simply because he does not have a lot of time. The minimum for a Citation copilot should be $300 a day. These guys would be willing to pay that if no one in the area would fly for free.

I do fly for a company with at Citation II, very part time, that uses right seaters for free. If none of the free guys can do it, they call me and pay me $300 a day. They are willing to pay $300 per day if they have to. If no one would work for free they would be paying $300 a day to everybody.

Alex.

 

[ppragman]

My "smartass remark" (it was not intended to be smartass) had to do with you not really knowing how corporate aviation works. Post what you have said at a website full of corporate pilots and there are not going too many people that would agree with you. That is especially true if the website has many people who make their living as contract pilots. I won't be angry at him if he took a job paying $120 a day, but I would be dissapointed. Pay should not be low simply because he does not have a lot of time. The minimum for a Citation copilot should be $300 a day. These guys would be willing to pay that if no one in the area would fly for free.

I do fly for a company with at Citation II, very part time, that uses right seaters for free. If none of the free guys can do it, they call me and pay me $300 a day. They are willing to pay $300 per day if they have to. If no one would work for free they would be paying $300 a day to everybody.

Alex.

Ok, sure, I don't know, however, as far as I've seen, $300/day for an entry level job is a little much.

They don't have to, there's a reason you fly there "very part time." Look, I'm not saying "work for free," I'm saying for a guy with 1000TT, and no jet time, $150 isn't a bad rate. $300/day for a guy with 1000TT is prima donna salary. I wouldn't mind getting it, or that I would turn it down if offered, but its a little outrageous at 1000TT, right seat of the CJ or not. $200/day is an excellent compromise at 1000TT. And guess what, Citation owner or not, they may not be able to pay it. Just because they have a jet doesn't mean they're making that much money with it.

I'm sure you do get called about potential jobs in your area, however, your 20 and I'm 20. I want to hear what a guy who's been flying corporate for 10-15 years has to say before we jump to conclusions. Ok, how about that?

 

[IPad (10)]

It is obvious we will never agree on this. I do not think flying a jet is an entry level job and I don't the pilots should be paid as such, reguardless of total time. Corporate aviation is not 121, it is not 135. There are 800 hour pilots making close to six figures because that is industry standard on the types of planes they fly. When I got hired at 18 and 1000 hours I made the industry standard for cheif pilot on a cabin class airplane. My responsibility is not porportional to my total time, so my pay shouldn't be either.

I'm sure you do get called about potential jobs in your area, however, your 20 and I'm 20. I want to hear what a guy who's been flying corporate for 10-15 years has to say before we jump to conclusions. Ok, how about that?

I can only give you my opinion as someone who has been a chief pilot at two companies. I can't give you the opinion of some one who has been a corporate pilot as 15 years. It is a shame my limited expereince is not enough to make my opinion worth while for you. And for the record, I respect what you have been able to do at your age and would be willing to listen to your opinion on flying in Alaska, even if you are only 20.

Alex.

 

[surreal1221]

Contract pilots holding the line for contract pay. . .

Bravo!

 

[ppragman]

It is obvious we will never agree on this. I do not think flying a jet is an entry level job and I don't the pilots should be paid as such, reguardless of total time. Corporate aviation is not 121, it is not 135. There are 800 hour pilots making close to six figures because that is industry standard on the types of planes they fly. When I got hired at 18 and 1000 hours I made the industry standard for cheif pilot on a cabin class airplane. My responsibility is not porportional to my total time, so my pay shouldn't be either.



I can only give you my opinion as someone who has been a chief pilot at two companies. I can't give you the opinion of some one who has been a corporate pilot as 15 years. It is a shame my limited expereince is not enough to make my opinion worth while for you. And for the record, I respect what you have been able to do at your age and would be willing to listen to your opinion on flying in Alaska, even if you are only 20.

Alex.

That's legitimate, I'll yield to your experience. You don't, however, have to be sarcastic about it.

P.S. How did you get to be CP at two companies, part 91?

 

[MikeOH58]

PPragman, I have a question for you...

As i've said in other posts this past week, I have the bare mininum amount of time to be insured as PIC in a King Air. In your opinion, should I be paid less than any other King Air PIC?

 

[MikeOH58]

My responsibility is not porportional to my total time, so my pay shouldn't be either.

:yeahthat:

That very well may be the best thing i've ever read on JC.

 

[ppragman]

PPragman, I have a question for you...

As i've said in other posts this past week, I have the bare mininum amount of time to be insured as PIC in a King Air. In your opinion, should I be paid less than any other King Air PIC?

Only less than those with more experience than you. If I owned a company, I'd pay as well as I could (e.g. $400/day for king air captains and up) but I don't think I'd hire CJ fos at 1000TT either, so it has to do with corporate judgement. If I were running a company, I'd be flying Co-Captains (e.g. they're both equally qualified and insurable to be in the left seat) and I'd still pay the guy who had more experience (and this doesn't necessarily mean total time, but rather time in type, types of operations, international experience, etc.) more because I want that guy to stick around. If this is how corporate works though, with everyone payed roughly the same wage, and with $300-500/ day being an entry level FO pay, then I may have to jump all over that stuff. It looks like a lot of it would be fun work as well. I do however, like not having to shave, and being able to wear a ballcap to work, so, I guess I can't really complain.

I see where your coming from, if someones paying $10000 to charter the bird, then an extra $300 isn't really that much, it just seems waaayyyy high to me. I guess I stand corrected.

In every 135 job I've had, you start at pay grade x, then proceed to pay grade x + y after the mandated amount of time. That seems the fairest to me. You have to prove to the company, as well as to the other pilots that your worth keeping around and paying more. Then they pay you more. At ACE for example, starting captains make $50/hr, then $52 after a year then so on to $60/hr + COLA. At Spernaks, pay is based on merit (eughh, a whole other can of worms, but we're really small) and time at the company. At Hageland, you get a daily rate that increases with the type of aircraft your in and your time at the company, until you max out at a fairly high wage (I'll have to ask my buddies what it is, but I think its $450/day + 70/hr in the 1900C).