GoJet/TSA Single-Carrier Petition

[FlyChicaga]

Here is a link to the single carrier petition by Trans States Airlines and the findings under investigation by the National Mediation Board. I will let you decide your own feelings on the subject.

http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter2006/33n009.pdf

I am not about to get involved in an argument about GoJets. I figured injecting some official documentation of what happened back in 2005 would be appropriate, however.

 

[aloft]

Thanks, Matt.

 

[meritflyer]

aloft, why do you take the whole GoJet thing personally if you don't work there?

 

[gtpilot]

Interesting reading - the creation of GO based on scope seems a valid argument. Also, for the pilots who were hired initially - 5 years seniority for pay, vacation, etc seems like a great incentive.

As for GO undercutting other regionals by accepting lower pay and poor work rules, many of us work at these same regionals and could be considered 'scabs' (a contemptible person, not a strike breaker) because we are undercutting major airline pilot pay and work quality.

My thought is, and I've seen this in aloft's posts, before anyone jumps on the bandwagon to defame GO pilots, take a good long look at your current position and try to justify why you're not undercutting someone else.

(Please note, I'm not defending GO pilots, I'm just not condemning them either)

 

[Polar742]

Let's not get confused. There are two specific issues: 1) the pilots 2) HK's tactics to whipsaw his own pilots

1) Pilots are pilots and find the best job they can.

2) HK has a history of screwing over his employees. His "good faith" barganing to "allow" the pilots on the TSA list to have one list to fly GoJets was nothing but a ruse to lower already low pay and crappy work rules at TSA. The pilots of TSA saw thru that and voted down the LOA. I mean a reduction of pay on their, at the time 145 rates, and flying the 70 seat aircraft at the present 50 seat rates.

Ask around about UFS. Ask about the west coast operation. Ask about all the pilots fired whimisically during contract negotiations.

Those are your issues with GoJet. Mainly HK's historical treatment of his employees is the issue. The GoJet pilots, while the early ones that left TSA, I feel sold out their brethern, are just pilots, and unfortunately the face of the company that gets punched. It's not right or fair for the majority.

GoJets was going to happen, and even if it was one list, that list would still be furloughing.

 

[fly8slep]

The fact is that what ever TSA tried to do by not accepting Gojets, like raising the bar, they failed. Gojet is hiring, getting new and bigger airplanes, has better pay and they have gotten new contracts. And by the way, I really think that ultimately Gojet and TSA will be merged. This whole thing is about pissed off TSA pilots who found that they didn't play their cards right. I know it's hard to comprehend that management is NOT going after you and is trying to ruin your QOL but you have to step back and look at the big picture.... Get more flying more equipment, secure the future for the company even if the terms aren't there because you can always work those out later like Gojet pilots did for themselves, I don't know how that is bringiing down the industry.

 

[aloft]

aloft, why do you take the whole GoJet thing personally if you don't work there?

Whatever gave you the idea I take the GoJet thing personally? I don't care what people think about the company, I just wanted to get to the bottom of it for my own edification; like I've said, at one time I was considering applying there.

What I do take personally are all the half-wits bashing me for questioning the party line. Their evidence and logic had very obvious holes in it, and several things just didn't add up to me, so I started looking into it to determine what the truth was. Having done so, I can say with reasonable certainty that a) GoJet was NOT created to get around the TSA pilot contract (that may have been a reason, but it was not THE reason); b) for all its flaws inherent in its creation, in 2008, GoJet is probably a pretty decent place to work. They now have a union and a union-negotiated CBA. Their compensation--including rates and work rules--is pretty middle-of-the-road for CRJ-700 operators; they're not raising the bar, but they're not lowering it, either.

But, sadly, the mob mentality among regional pilots is alive and well, and most people with such an inclination seem generally disinclined to question whatever they've heard about GoJet in cockpits, crewrooms or chat boards--certainly not enough to actually do some research to find out if the rumors are true. I questioned the kool aid and got my brains beat in for it on here, and that's sad--not for me, but for JC and its users.

Let's not get confused. There are two specific issues: 1) the pilots 2) HK's tactics to whipsaw his own pilots

1) Pilots are pilots and find the best job they can.

2) HK has a history of screwing over his employees. His "good faith" barganing to "allow" the pilots on the TSA list to have one list to fly GoJets was nothing but a ruse to lower already low pay and crappy work rules at TSA. The pilots of TSA saw thru that and voted down the LOA. I mean a reduction of pay on their, at the time 145 rates, and flying the 70 seat aircraft at the present 50 seat rates.

If HK's plan was to use GoJet as a whipsaw, he's going about it in an awfully strange way. If what you say is accurate about the payrates they were offered, I can certainly see why there'd be hesitation on the part of the TSA pilot group. However, other pilot groups have had to deal with the same issue and seemed to resolve it successfully without torching the place--SkyWest, to name one. And given GoJet's current rates, it seems that the 70-seat-jets-for-50-seat-pay didn't last long, and I'm sure some TSA pilots are kicking themselves for that--especially since 70+ seats are where all the growth will be going forward.

The other day, I had a just-furloughed TSA pilot PM me, saying that the tide of public opinion regarding GoJet among TSA pilots is not as unanimous as some would have you believe, and that after a lot of talk with some of his captains, and others, he'd changed his mind about GoJet and was submitting his app there. Smart man, I'd say.

 

[TheAlchemist]

The other day, I had a just-furloughed TSA pilot PM me, saying that the tide of public opinion regarding GoJet among TSA pilots is not as unanimous as some would have you believe, and that after a lot of talk with some of his captains, and others, he'd changed his mind about GoJet and was submitting his app there. Smart man, I'd say.

Just for the record...

the aforementioned pilot is NOT me!

And trust me when I say Matt, that pilot is NOT going to have many friends in St Louis. At least not in KSTL.

Although I don't like Gojet pilots for what they did to their fellow pilots I'm just not an a$$ by nature. I want to ignore them when I see them around STL or ORD but I just can't be that cold. I've notice that everytime a little chat is inevitable G7 pilots can never keep their chin up or look me straight in the eyes. To me that's nothing more nothing less than a guilt conscious.

Has anyone else notice this about Gojet pilots? Or is it just me?

 

[Gonzo]

Their compensation--including rates and work rules--is pretty middle-of-the-road for CRJ-700 operators; they're not raising the bar, but they're not lowering it, either.

This bit right here show the quality of your info.

With the new CBA Gojet pilots are the 2nd lowest pay 700 pilots. They beat Mesa by about one dollar hour, but Mesa makes it up by have a higher guarantee. Their work rules are about the same as Mesa also.

 

[aloft]

This bit right here show the quality of your info.

With the new CBA Gojet pilots are the 2nd lowest pay 700 pilots. They beat Mesa by about one dollar hour, but Mesa makes it up by have a higher guarantee. Their work rules are about the same as Mesa also.

Yeah, right down there bottom-feeding alongside Comair. :whatever: And really, how many pilots only make guarantee?

As to work rules, you'll need to be more specific.

From APC (with a few other companies tossed in for comparison):

5th yr CRJ 700 CA pay:
GoJet: $66 (goes up to $67 this year, and $71 over the next 4 yrs)
Mesa: $64
Comair: $66
SkyWest: $69 (CR7/CR9)
Eagle: -- no such thing as a 5th yr CR7 CA
Colgan: $60 (Q400 -- 78 seats)

Min Guarantee (lineholder/reserve):
GoJet: 74/74
Mesa: 76/76
Comair: 75/75
SkyWest: 75/75
Eagle: 72/75
Colgan: 75/75

Min Days Off (lineholder/reserve):
GoJet: 11/11
Mesa: 10.83/10.83

Per Diem:
GoJet: $1.50/hr (increases by $0.05 every 2nd yr)
Mesa: $1.28/hr
Comair: $1.55/hr
Eagle: $1.70/hr (increases by $0.05 each year)
Colgan: $1.35/hr

Like I said: not industry-leading, but not bottom-feeding either.

 

[aloft]

Although I don't like Gojet pilots for what they did to their fellow pilots I'm just not an a$$ by nature. I want to ignore them when I see them around STL or ORD but I just can't be that cold.

Please, spell out exactly what GoJet pilots did to their fellow pilots that makes you not like them. EXACTLY. As a TSA newhire, I'm very interested to know what exactly you've been told. And by whom.

Did they undercut your rates or steal flying from you? No. (Has your company done this to others? Yes.)

Have they been whipsawed against your company in order to extract concessions? No.

I've notice that everytime a little chat is inevitable G7 pilots can never keep their chin up or look me straight in the eyes. To me that's nothing more nothing less than a guilt conscious.

Has anyone else notice this about Gojet pilots? Or is it just me?

From Wikipedia:

The observer-expectancy effect is a cognitive bias found in science that occurs when a researcher expects a given result and therefore unconsciously manipulates an experiment in order to find it.

Then again, maybe they're just tired of people flipping them off, denying them rides home and other immature, unprofessional behavior for stuff they had nothing to do with.

 

[Gonzo]

As to work rules, you'll need to be more specific.

Deadhead Pay: 50%
CDO rules suck.
Airport Reserve Rules.
New Aircraft Type Section
No Strike
Jets for Jobs

To name a few.

 

[Soul Brotha']

Yeah, right down there bottom-feeding alongside Comair. :whatever: And really, how many pilots only make guarantee?

As to work rules, you'll need to be more specific.

From APC (with a few other companies tossed in for comparison):

5th yr CRJ 700 CA pay:
GoJet: $66 (goes up to $67 this year, and $71 over the next 4 yrs)
Mesa: $64
Comair: $66
SkyWest: $69 (CR7/CR9)
Eagle: -- no such thing as a 5th yr CR7 CA
Colgan: $60 (Q400 -- 78 seats)

Min Guarantee (lineholder/reserve):
GoJet: 74/74
Mesa: 76/76
Comair: 75/75
SkyWest: 75/75
Eagle: 72/75
Colgan: 75/75

Min Days Off (lineholder/reserve):
GoJet: 11/11
Mesa: 10.83/10.83

Per Diem:
GoJet: $1.50/hr (increases by $0.05 every 2nd yr)
Mesa: $1.28/hr
Comair: $1.55/hr
Eagle: $1.70/hr (increases by $0.05 each year)
Colgan: $1.35/hr

Like I said: not industry-leading, but not bottom-feeding either.

The only reason why Comair is right along side with your companies above is because they were undercut. Comair was the second highest paying regional until a BK judge saw the payrates and workrules of GoJets and Mesa and said if they could do it so can you.

 

[derg]

For crissakes folks, this is about single-carrier status, not yet another "Why don't they love GoJets" -- if it becomes another mind numbing squabble like the others, it will be terminated.

Yup, I'm cranky this afternoon. Massive delays for JFK. And I could use an episode of "Yo Gabba Gabba", a juice box and a nap like a 4 year old.

 

[JumpWake]

For crissakes folks, this is about single-carrier status, not yet another "Why don't they love GoJets" -- if it becomes another mind numbing squabble like the others, it will be terminated.

:yeahthat:

It's quite clear that Aloft is not going to change his mind on anything related to GoJet. Again, he's hijacked the thread and is about to get it closed. It's sickening and not even worth responding to his banter anymore. Just let it die, Aloft.:banghead:

 

[kellwolf]

The fact is that what ever TSA tried to do by not accepting Gojets, like raising the bar, they failed. Gojet is hiring, getting new and bigger airplanes, has better pay and they have gotten new contracts. And by the way, I really think that ultimately Gojet and TSA will be merged. This whole thing is about pissed off TSA pilots who found that they didn't play their cards right. I know it's hard to comprehend that management is NOT going after you and is trying to ruin your QOL but you have to step back and look at the big picture.... Get more flying more equipment, secure the future for the company even if the terms aren't there because you can always work those out later like Gojet pilots did for themselves, I don't know how that is bringiing down the industry.

If the two merged, history would have repeated itself a la Mesa/Freedom.

 

[rausda27]

And I could use an episode of "Yo Gabba Gabba", a juice box and a nap like a 4 year old.

My 4 year old loves that show. It drives me crazy, every song is insanely repetitious to the point you will find yourself singing the tunes a week later.

You can babysit anytime Taylor...you might have the same taste in television as my daughter..

 

[TheAlchemist]

Please, spell out exactly what GoJet pilots did to their fellow pilots that makes you not like them. EXACTLY. As a TSA newhire, I'm very interested to know what exactly you've been told. And by whom.

Did they undercut your rates or steal flying from you? No. (Has your company done this to others? Yes.)

Have they been whipsawed against your company in order to extract concessions? No.

Are you?

You got it all figured out Aloft. So why should I (as a TSA new hire) waste my time spelling out EXACTLY what Gojet did to TSA? I'm afraid I might just insult your inteligence.

Oh wait a minute...maybe I know why.

From Britannica:

Main Entry: ob·sti·nate
Pronunciation: 'äb-st&-n&t
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin obstinatus, past participle of obstinare to be resolved, from ob- in the way + -stinare (akin to stare to stand)
1 : perversely adhering to an opinion, purpose, or course in spite of reason, arguments, or persuasion
2 : not easily subdued, remedied, or removed <obstinate fever>
- ob·sti·nate·ly adverb
- ob·sti·nate·ness noun
synonyms OBSTINATE, DOGGED, STUBBORN, PERTINACIOUS, MULISH mean fixed and unyielding in course or purpose. OBSTINATE implies usually an unreasonable persistence <an obstinate proponent of conspiracy theories>. DOGGED suggests an admirable often tenacious and unwavering persistence <pursued the story with dogged perseverance>. STUBBORN implies sturdiness in resisting change which may or may not be admirable <a person too stubborn to admit error>. PERTINACIOUS suggests an annoying or irksome persistence <a pertinacious salesclerk refusing to take no for an answer>. MULISH implies a thoroughly unreasonable obstinacy <a mulish determination to have his own way>.

 

[DV8Pilot]

...and I'm be before this guy does his job!

 

[aloft]

For crissakes folks, this is about single-carrier status, not yet another "Why don't they love GoJets" -- if it becomes another mind numbing squabble like the others, it will be terminated.

Huh??? This thread was never about single-carrier status. Matt clearly stated the intent of his post here:

I am not about to get involved in an argument about GoJets. I figured injecting some official documentation of what happened back in 2005 would be appropriate, however.

He was merely adding a set of facts from 2005/2006 to the overall GoJet discussion.

Honestly, Doug. GoJets is seriously a topic worth discussing, but its contentious nature requires that the mod staff resist the urge to simply lock the thread, and instead, actively scrub the discussion of posts by people who just want to throw a Molotov Cocktail and run. I know this runs counter to your desire that JC maintain a cocktail-party superficiality, but dammit, this is important. G7 is one of only two airlines hiring right now (not counting Lakes), and you'd have your readers pass up an opportunity there because some people heard it's a bad idea? Like I said, the anti-GoJet sentiment isn't even consensus among TSA pilots anymore. It's important that people considering diving into this industry learn to separate the wheat from the chaff, and a serious, mature discussion of the issues and facts helps teach this. Cries of "they r deh suck and ur a big dumb stupidhead 4 not siding with me" do not.

I'm grateful Chicaga posted that doc, because it's helping chip away at the b.s. around the issue.

It's quite clear that Aloft is not going to change his mind on anything related to GoJet. Again, he's hijacked the thread and is about to get it closed. It's sickening and not even worth responding to his banter anymore. Just let it die, Aloft.:banghead:

Why's it sickening? Because I have an open mind and think for myself, rather than having someone tell me what to think? You just MIGHT change my mind, but you won't do it by repeating "they scrooed the TSA pilots" over and over again without showing a) how the TSA pilots were actually harmed by GoJet's creation, and b) who exactly was responsible.

You, on the other hand, keep wanting to make the argument about ME, and one must assume that's because you can't adequately support your own position with facts.

If the two merged, history would have repeated itself a la Mesa/Freedom.

Not really. As the doc Matt posted spelled out, the two situations bear little resemblance.

Are you?

You got it all figured out Aloft. So why should I (as a TSA new hire) waste my time spelling out EXACTLY what Gojet did to TSA? I'm afraid I might just insult your inteligence.

Oh wait a minute...maybe I know why.

From Britannica:

Funny, but not very clever. I didn't think you could articulate an understanding of the situation, and you didn't disappoint.