Going past the 100 hour on a 135 airplane

Fly_Unity

Fly_Unity

Well-Known Member
Ok, so I know you can not go past the 100 hour if your using the plane for hire. Lets say the airplane is on a 135 certificate. Can one use the airplane (not for hire) and go past the 100 hour? if not, anyone know where one can find documentation saying that?
 
It has always been my understanding that you can. However I have nothing other than a logical reading of the reg to back that up.
 
probably should check the 135's ops manual and their gmm. flying it beyond an inspection could result in a violation on their cert if they continued to use it 135. knot4u
 
Fly_Unity said:
Ok, so I know you can not go past the 100 hour if your using the plane for hire. Lets say the airplane is on a 135 certificate. Can one use the airplane (not for hire) and go past the 100 hour? if not, anyone know where one can find documentation saying that?
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I cannot quote regs, other than saying my CP told me so, that we can do checkrides or aircraft repositions if the 100 hour is close or over.
 
I need some source. Chief pilot and Director of Maintenance are having issues with each other regarding this issue.
 
Fly_Unity said:
I need some source. Chief pilot and Director of Maintenance are having issues with each other regarding this issue.
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I don't think you're going to find this one explicitly. As the CP here says, "Not following the 135 rules when you're not 135 is like breaking the laws of Egypt when you're not in Egypt. Who cares?"

When you don't have passengers or cargo (other than comat), you're not 135, so how can you break a 135 regulation?
 
msmspilot said:
I don't think you're going to find this one explicitly. As the CP here says, "Not following the 135 rules when you're not 135 is like breaking the laws of Egypt when you're not in Egypt. Who cares?"

When you don't have passengers or cargo (other than comat), you're not 135, so how can you break a 135 regulation?[/QUOTE]

If I'm not mistaken, in this case that reasoning doesn't apply. The airplane is maintained under the certificate holder's approved inspection program, and therefore is maintained in accordance with it, regardless of whether or not it is being operated on a 135 leg.

My current employer is approved to overfly the 100hr. by its GOM, so the above scenario is really a moot point.
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2BEER said:
msmspilot said:
I don't think you're going to find this one explicitly. As the CP here says, "Not following the 135 rules when you're not 135 is like breaking the laws of Egypt when you're not in Egypt. Who cares?"

When you don't have passengers or cargo (other than comat), you're not 135, so how can you break a 135 regulation?
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If I'm not mistaken, in this case that reasoning doesn't apply. The airplane is maintained under the certificate holder's approved inspection program, and therefore is maintained in accordance with it, regardless of whether or not it is being operated on a 135 leg.

My current employer is approved to overfly the 100hr. by its GOM, so the above scenario is really a moot point.
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91.409 references an aircraft being used "for hire." If you're not carrying passengers or cargo, the plane is not being operated for hire. I'm not the super expert on all this, but I know our CP has told us we can overfly the 100hr for training and repositioning flights. I can't find anything to contradict that. The FARs, in general, tell us what we can't do. So I would say the burden of proof is on whoever is saying you can't do it to show the reg that says you can't do it.

I can promise there isn't going to be one that says "you are permitted to..."
 
2BEER said:
The airplane is maintained under the certificate holder's approved inspection program, and therefore is maintained in accordance with it, regardless of whether or not it is being operated on a 135 leg.
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Best answer yet.

24/7, until the logbook entry is made and the FAA is notified, an airplane is always 135 regardless of who is flying or the purpose of the flight. There is probably a part in the GOM that references Opspecs Sect D that outline the inspection program. It's tied into the operator maintaining operational control of the aircraft.
 
deadstick said:
Best answer yet.

24/7, until the logbook entry is made and the FAA is notified, an airplane is always 135 regardless of who is flying or the purpose of the flight. There is probably a part in the GOM that references Opspecs Sect D that outline the inspection program. It's tied into the operator maintaining operational control of the aircraft.
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Regulation/AC/etc?

My problem with your interpretation is two-fold.
1) If you're not carrying anything for hire, you're not operating for hire.
All these people who have a lease agreement to a 135 operator for their airplane can't fly it for their personal use beyond the 100hr inspection? BS
2) The opspecs say the operator is "authorized" to use particular airplanes for 135 operations. Just because something is authorized doesn't mean you have to do it.
 
I didn't say that an operator "can't" overfly a 100hr. if on a 135 cert. In fact in my example I stated that the operator I work for can. The simple answer is that an aicraft on a 135 cert. is maintained, whether it's being operated on a 135 leg or not, in accordance that certificate's approved inspection program. Period. There is no pt.91 exemption like there is for takeoff minimums. I don't have a far/aim in front of me, so I can't search regs for a source. But remember, the hierarchy for regulatory compliance is GOM first, Pt. 135 next, then Pt. 91. If I were looking for the answer I would start in my GOM and go from there. If your CP needs the answer, he might consider asking the POI.
 
It's the difference between operating a 135 flight and operating a 135 aircraft.

Scenario:
An owner has his Navajo on leaseback or leased to a 135 operator. He transfers operational control to the certificate holder. He has to be trained in and follow the admin procedures of the certificate holder. The aircraft does not have an approved MEL (it probably would, I know). He goes to some remote field in west BFE with his girlfriend and blows a tire. He cannot just get a local A/P to swap out the tire. He has to call back to the certificate holder, and they have to approve the person/facility conducting the maintenance. It's a 91 flight, but the plane is still carried as a 135 aircraft and listed in the certificate holder's Opspecs. Now, let's say it was a burnt out landing light. Can he legally just return home as is? Nope. 135.179 -- no MEL has been issued. Yes, the flight is flown by the owner, not for hire, etc etc etc. However, with no MEL every static wick, bulb, switch, and breaker has to be right. In a pure 91 operation, you are right. Blast off. But this aircraft is under the operational control and subject to the maintenance program of the certificate holder.
 
deadstick said:
It's the difference between operating a 135 flight and operating a 135 aircraft.

Scenario:
An owner has his Navajo on leaseback or leased to a 135 operator. He transfers operational control to the certificate holder. He has to be trained in and follow the admin procedures of the certificate holder. The aircraft does not have an approved MEL (it probably would, I know). He goes to some remote field in west BFE with his girlfriend and blows a tire. He cannot just get a local A/P to swap out the tire. He has to call back to the certificate holder, and they have to approve the person/facility conducting the maintenance. It's a 91 flight, but the plane is still carried as a 135 aircraft and listed in the certificate holder's Opspecs. Now, let's say it was a burnt out landing light. Can he legally just return home as is? Nope. 135.179 -- no MEL has been issued. Yes, the flight is flown by the owner, not for hire, etc etc etc. However, with no MEL every static wick, bulb, switch, and breaker has to be right. In a pure 91 operation, you are right. Blast off. But this aircraft is under the operational control and subject to the maintenance program of the certificate holder.
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FAR 1.1 defines operational control as "the exercise of authority over initiating, conducting, or terminating a flight." While the owner is flying his own airplane, you're saying he has to get permission from the 135 certificate holder to initiate the flight just as if it were a revenue leg? If not, I say the owner has operational control for that flight, and it's part 91.

I'd love to see a regulation, letter of interpretation, advisory circular, something from the FAA saying otherwise.

I agree that the repair to the airplane has to be inspected and possibly redone in accordance with the certificate holder's opspec before the plane can be operated under 135 again, but I would truly be shocked to know that the FAA interpreted things like you are.
 
msmspilot said:
FAR 1.1 defines operational control as "the exercise of authority over initiating, conducting, or terminating a flight." While the owner is flying his own airplane, you're saying he has to get permission from the 135 certificate holder to initiate the flight just as if it were a revenue leg? If not, I say the owner has operational control for that flight, and it's part 91.
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In essence, yes. 135.77. Once it is listed as a 135 aircraft, it remains a 135 aircraft until removed from the certificate/opspecs. During that time, the certificate holder maintains operational control of the aircraft. Operational Control has been big since the Challenger went driving into the warehouse across the street from TEB.
 
deadstick said:
In essence, yes. 135.77. Once it is listed as a 135 aircraft, it remains a 135 aircraft until removed from the certificate/opspecs. During that time, the certificate holder maintains operational control of the aircraft. Operational Control has been big since the Challenger went driving into the warehouse across the street from TEB.
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I hate these discussions. You don't have anything in black and white that says "an airplane under 135 is always under 135," and I certainly can't prove a negative.

So we end up your opinion vs mine, which is worth the electrons we're throwing at each other.

135.77 doesn't say an airplane listed in the manual must always be under the operational control of the company. It says that when operated under 135 it has to be under the operational control of the company. Or maybe I'm just stupid.
 
My obsevation is that these various 'opinions' are driven by different POIs in different FSDOs. They all have their own interpretation.
You won't find consistancy throughout the U.S. on this or many matters, especially maintenance.
You will have to go with your POI's opinion.
 
If you're still having problems, call your POI. Your ops specs should have this answer, and if it doesn't, your DO should have the answer, and if he can't figure it out then just have him call the POI. It's what they're there for.
 
Operational control is a key here. If the aircraft is fixed by an outside vendor that vendor has to be on an approved drug program and any certs (repair station/ A/P) need to be forwarded to the inspection dept of the the 135 that uses the aircraft on its cert, GOM and GMM may differ but a due list is a due list. Some inspections have grace and can be postponed, some can't. If the aircraft if is flown outside of whatever the manuals (GOM/GMM) the FAA has approved for that paticular 135 on a 91 flight it can't be used for 135 flights until it is back in compliance with all the manuals that the FAA has approved for that paticular 135 cert. At least thats been my experience. knot4u
 
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