Going from Part 141 to Part 61 after Private Pilot Rating... Obstacles and advice

ZUKO

ZUKO

Well-Known Member
Hey,

Many of you guys know that I have been thinking about leaving UND for a couple months now. I have gone through many struggles while attending UND. Some have been under my control and some have not. Overall, I feel that it is time for a change. At UND we have three scheduled launches a week. How ever the weather is in constant flux and we rarely ever fly the advertised 3 times a week. Due to the weather I have not flown in the last two weeks. But this thread is not about the shortfalls of just another aviation academy.

I will finish up my private pilot license by the end of the semester. Around the first week of May. It will then take about three weeks for UND to finish the paperwork and get me at least a temporary. Right now I am planning to drive down to Arizona and start training in a part 61 environment. I am planning on finishing up my degree in something outside of Aviation at ASU.

What obstacles can I expect going from 141 to 61? What should I look for in a flight school? I am looking to train at one of the airports close to ASU. Maybe Mesa or Scottsdale.

Another big thing that worries me is that once I get my private via part 141, I will be no where near the 40 or 50 XC hours needed to get my IR. Will it be hard to find an instructor willing to go on cross countries with me in order for my costs not to sky rocket?

Do you feel my decision is worth it considering my position now? Have anyone of you done something similar? I feel it is worth it considering I really dislike not being able to fly constantly. I also do not like the way UND is structured course wise. They take two semesters to dothe same IR over the summer in Arizona. I learn so much better when they are no breaks in my training. If I go to Arizona, I will not have to worry about going home to see family during school breaks. I could fly all year around 3-5 times a week.

Any advice, comments and suggestions are welcomed. I could really use some guidance. I have no idea what to expect when I leave UND. I have a little bit of fear regarding the situation. With the advice that I have been reading on JC since I have came here, I feel like the benefits will be realized once I get settled.

My career goals are to get my IR-MEI after I get my private at UND. Start being an instructor in about a year to a year in a half. Instruct part time while in College. Finish my degree and find a rewarding flying job that I love that gives me the best future possible. (Whether being in Freight/Regions/etc)

Thanks,

Justin
 
The only major difference between 141 and 61 for a private is the 5 hour difference. 35 hours for 141 and 40 hours for part 61, which 90% of people won't get close at 35 hours anyways.

If you are close to finishing, any instructor can look at your logbook, see if you are short on any requirements, and get your ready for your checkride. You will need three hours of test prep with the new instructor.

For instrument, I suggest finding a 141 school to do it, if time is a factor. There are quite a few 141 schools out there, even at "mom and pop" type flight schools. However, you will need to build time anyways for the Commerical, if you plan on doing it part 61, which will save you money in the long run. It may be beneficial for you to just build up the time in the airplane, and get your instrument and commercial part 61. That way, you aren't paying an instructor 30-70 dollars an hour for a majority of your time.

The AOPA has a good guide for choosing a school. Basic common sense stuff will help you. What kind of "vibe" does the place give you? Are the aircraft clean? Do they look good cosmetically? How do the facilities look? How do the prices compare to other local flight schools?
 
mojo6911 said:
The only major difference between 141 and 61 for a private is the 5 hour difference. 35 hours for 141 and 40 hours for part 61, which 90% of people won't get close at 35 hours anyways.

If you are close to finishing, any part 61 school can look at your logbook, see if you are short on any requirements, and get your ready for your checkride. You will need three hours of test prep with the new instructor.

For instrument, I suggest finding a 141 school to do it, if time is a factor. There are quite a few 141 schools out there, even at "mom and pop" type flight schools.
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I am going to finish my private at UND this semester. No doubt about that. I am very close and will have the flying part of it done in just a couple of weeks hopefully.

So you are saying my best option for my IR may be to find a 141 school to take advantage of the IR lower XC requirements and then do my Commercial part 61?

I think I heard of a school in Mesa, AZ that had part 141 and part 61 programs.
 
You will have to do some number crunching, it may be beneficial to do both under 61.

141 Instrument: 35 hours dual instruction.
61 Instrument: 50 hours X-C, 40 hours instrument, 15 hours instruction.

If you can find someone who is in the same boat as you, you could both rent an airplane for long cross countries, and switch off as safety pilots. One of you will be under the hood, and the other will be looking out for traffic. You can both log this as PIC, Simulated Instrument (when under the hood) and split the cost of the aircraft rental.

All of this time, and any time you spend just flying the airplane for fun, will count towards 61 commercial, but not 141.

It really depends on a lot of factors.
 
mojo6911 said:
You will have to do some number crunching, it may be beneficial to do both under 61.

141 Instrument: 35 hours dual instruction.
61 Instrument: 50 hours X-C, 40 hours instrument, 15 hours instruction.

If you can find someone who is in the same boat as you, you could both rent an airplane for long cross countries, and switch off as safety pilots. One of you will be under the hood, and the other will be looking out for traffic. You can both log this as PIC, Simulated Instrument (when under the hood) and split the cost of the aircraft rental.

All of this time, and any time you spend just flying the airplane for fun, will count towards 61 commercial, but not 141.

It really depends on a lot of factors.
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See the main problem is that I am going to leave UND with 5-10 hours of cross country time. The safety pilot is a good idea. See I was thinking that I could do a lot of my instruction time on cross countries just to lower the gap. I am not sure how realistic this is. Thanks.
 
There are quite a few 141 schools out there, even at "mom and pop" type flight schools.
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I got my private at a 61 school. Then I got my IR at a 141 school because of the GI Bill and the lower XC time requirements. The 141 school was pretty much a regular mom and pop that just went through the 141 reqirements with the FAA. Although it was 141, it probably was closer to a 61 school then any thing. I then finnished the rest part 61 (Comm SE/ME). It probably won't be to hard to make the transition to a 61 school, it's all flying, just no stupid stage checks.:)

See I was thinking that I could do a lot of my instruction time on cross countries just to lower the gap. I am not sure how realistic this is.
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It will depend on your instructor, but that's probably not out of the question at all. You're going to have to pay for you're XC time. It's just a matter of how much.
 
In my experience if I had done 141 from the beginning I would have finished my SEcomm with 190 TT at a minimum at the school I was at. Not a huge difference but a 60 hour difference at that. It made no difference to me when my instrument rating was added in there. In fact, the program I was in technically called for the IR and Comm being finished very close to each other. It probably depends on what program you can get into.
 
Listen justin, i know you think you have gotten a bad deal at UND, life isnt fair ,but also UND and any of the 141 college flight training programs are setup for the professional aviation career. If you cannot deal with how UND is running there program, then a career in aviation might be real tough for you to go through. I suggest that you really make sure you want to fly for a living. there is no problem with flying for fun and doing something else as a career. As far as times go I am did CFI part 61 at UND and well there are some benefits to 61 ops there are some drawbacks. The time it takes to get every rating up to the CFI course is a bit of time but compared to maybe part 61 ,the money spent is well worth it. You need to 250 hours TT as per part 61 regs to obtain a commercial license. You can not count the xc time as a private towards that. You can get your Instrument and commercial ratings at about the same time but once again you are flying in a desert and during the summer you are prolly not going to fly much(i.e. hot temps, high desnity altitude, Monsoon season, etc.) and in the winter time depending on weather condition you may have a problem flying(i.e. low cielings, snow, wind, etc.). Also with training in the desert the weather is generally better than GFK's weather but you also lose out on really good experiences. When you are insrtument training up here you have a chance to get alot of actual instrument time. In the desert you dont get as much if any at all. I know some people may disagree with what I am gonna say but it is truthful. Simulated instrument time doesnt even compare to actual instrument time. Justin I think you really need to think about where you wanna take yourself in this field. It may be the road in which you get your IR and ME rating and thats it. UND( also includes other 141 schools i.e. ERAU, Purdue, WMU, etc.) is structured like an airline because they are producing alot of professional pilots. The industry is like that as well, whether it be coporate or 121 environment, it is heavliy structured. Take my advice or not, i am not gonna pass judgement on you, but if you still go with trying to fly for a career then you are going to have a rough time doing so.

-Farva

P.S. PM me if you would like help or have question regarding UND or flying in the desert SW.
 
Farva said:
Listen justin, i know you think you have gotten a bad deal at UND, life isnt fair ,but also UND and any of the 141 college flight training programs are setup for the professional aviation career. If you cannot deal with how UND is running there program, then a career in aviation might be real tough for you to go through. I suggest that you really make sure you want to fly for a living. there is no problem with flying for fun and doing something else as a career. As far as times go I am did CFI part 61 at UND and well there are some benefits to 61 ops there are some drawbacks. The time it takes to get every rating up to the CFI course is a bit of time but compared to maybe part 61 ,the money spent is well worth it. You need to 250 hours TT as per part 61 regs to obtain a commercial license. You can not count the xc time as a private towards that. You can get your Instrument and commercial ratings at about the same time but once again you are flying in a desert and during the summer you are prolly not going to fly much(i.e. hot temps, high desnity altitude, Monsoon season, etc.) and in the winter time depending on weather condition you may have a problem flying(i.e. low cielings, snow, wind, etc.). Also with training in the desert the weather is generally better than GFK's weather but you also lose out on really good experiences. When you are insrtument training up here you have a chance to get alot of actual instrument time. In the desert you dont get as much if any at all. I know some people may disagree with what I am gonna say but it is truthful. Simulated instrument time doesnt even compare to actual instrument time. Justin I think you really need to think about where you wanna take yourself in this field. It may be the road in which you get your IR and ME rating and thats it. UND( also includes other 141 schools i.e. ERAU, Purdue, WMU, etc.) is structured like an airline because they are producing alot of professional pilots. The industry is like that as well, whether it be coporate or 121 environment, it is heavliy structured. Take my advice or not, i am not gonna pass judgement on you, but if you still go with trying to fly for a career then you are going to have a rough time doing so.

-Farva

P.S. PM me if you would like help or have question regarding UND or flying in the desert SW.
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I am headed out for a cross country. I will respond when I get back. My main problems with UND is that I am not flying a lot and I really do not enjoy where its located.

I am not sure if its fair to say that UND is set up like an airline.

I want to fly professionally but I am not going to be ignorant enough and realize that things could happen. Thats why I planned to get a double major here in Finance or major at ASU in Finance.

My flight instructor came from UNDs school in Arizona. He told me that I will have no problem flying in the summer as long as I am willing to get up at sunrise. He believes that I will have much more time to fly over all.

I think whether or not I fly professionally will be up to how much I want to do it rather then what program I attend.
 
Farva said:
Justin I think you really need to think about where you wanna take yourself in this field. It may be the road in which you get your IR and ME rating and thats it. UND( also includes other 141 schools i.e. ERAU, Purdue, WMU, etc.) is structured like an airline because they are producing alot of professional pilots.
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I have no idea about UND or his expeirence. But thats a load! Some places need to relize who is paying who A LOT of money! That "we are training you to work in the airline enviroment" by not treating you as a CUSTOMER is crap!

Again, not pointing out UND. I know nothing about them.

Plus, some of the stuff you said would have been better said in a PM.
 
I do not see what I said was so wrong, I would like to know what should have been in a PM. As far as UND goes it is not a load. They are here to provide an environment to make you a pilot that is well rounded as well as knowledgable about flying(ie. physics, laws, principles, etc.). And Any 141 school is like that. The only thing that UND nor any 141 school will do is just give you a license because you think should get one. There are rights you do have and apply to everyone. They are there to treat you with respect and try to resolve any issues you may have but it is a university and well they expect you to be ahead of the game and be proactive. That is the same for any big university. That is all there is to it. Justin has a problem with the school and well there are always two sides to every story. Not saying he is wrong or even lying about his experience but he also needs to understand that UND is structured like any airline or flight department and well our training syllabus comes from NWA. so if he does not like the way things are done then maybe he should fly for fun and not for a career. that is all man.
 
I was biting my tongue until I saw that last message...

Farva said:
They are here to provide an environment to make you a pilot that is well rounded as well as knowledgable about flying(ie. physics, laws, principles, etc.). And Any 141 school is like that.
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Are you suggesting that schools operating under Part 61 do not teach these concepts? I think you might be using "141" and "academy-type school" to mean the same thing. Plenty of FBO-type schools use a 141 program, and plenty of academy-type schools use a Part 61 program. Semantics, I know, but proper usage helps keep everybody on the same page.

Farva said:
...UND is structured like any airline or flight department and well our training syllabus comes from NWA.
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Every airline and flight department is "structured" differently. It sounds like you're inferring that if somebody doesn't like working for Mesa (as a random example), then they won't like working for any airline at all. By reading the forums, you can see that every airline has a different work environment. I suspect this is true of flight schools, including the academy-university types (read UND and ERAU). Every organization has different mission statements, culture, beliefs, methods, and people. (Which is perhaps why some airlines have higher turnover than others and why some airlines make more money than others.)

Farva said:
so if he does not like the way things are done [at UND] then maybe he should fly for fun and not for a career. that is all man.
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This is perhaps the crudest generalization I've read in a long time. If it isn't obvious, I strongly disagree. (See above paragraph for explanation.)

Justin, there are many places that will teach you how to fly. Graduating from a "well-respected" aviation university or academy may or may not make your job hunt any easier. (My experience is that it will not.) Finishing your ratings part 61 or part 141 will not change the ink on your certificates. As for the cost element, Mr. Finance major, open up MS Excel (or whatever spreadsheet you fancy) and create a cost-comparison analysis of 91 vs 141. With regard to college majors, I studied another field I was interested in (accounting). As you mentioned, it makes for a good back-up plan. But more importantly, I think pursuing other interests rounds out one's professional development nicely. That said, I have absolutely no disrespect for aerospace/aviation majors... quite the opposite in fact.

It sounds like you've made up your mind to move to AZ. (I agree that you'll likely have more flying days there than in ND.) Make a plan and follow it through. If you're not happy with the training you're receiving now, it's probably time for a change.
 
WAFlyboy do you fly for a living? Have you ever been to or attended to UND or some other school similar to it. I am not referring to part 141 schools at the local FBO I know there are those out there i was more referring to " university" flight schools in general.
 
Zuko,
You gotta do what is best for you to get your ratings done. Part 61, 141, University, Mom and pop FBO all help you attain the same rating. I was in the UVSC flight program locally here in Utah Valley up until a month ago. I was greatly dissatisfied with the program and had to make a change. It was not getting me where I want to be for many of the same reasons you are mentioning, scheduled three times a week, only launching once was a big one. They would not let me choose the instructor that I would fly with and were trying to stick me with someone that got his ticket stamped a week previous.
I made the change to a new, much smaller flight school. The difference is night and day. Now I am on the schedule 5 days a week and have an experienced instructor that knows how to instruct and didnt just come through the same program I am in a few months ago.

Do your homework on whichever school you choose and as long as it fits your needs go for it.
 
Farva said:
WAFlyboy do you fly for a living? Have you ever been to or attended to UND or some other school similar to it. I am not referring to part 141 schools at the local FBO I know there are those out there i was more referring to " university" flight schools in general.
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If you read his profile/look at his avatar, you could answer your own question.

if he does not like the way things are done then maybe he should fly for fun and not for a career. that is all man.
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Nice...the guy doesn't like the fact that he's not flying as much as he wants to, and you accuse him of not being cut out for a flying career? That's a great attitude--"if he doesn't like my school, he's not going to make it at the airlines".
 
From someone who attended a flight program: Go where you want and get your cfi ASAP. Whatever they teach you in "flight programs" you can easily learn on your own as long as you don't need to be spoonfed. Hell, I learned as much about transport aircraft ops in MSFS than in the sim here. It's mostly a bunch of coolaid and filler classes the last few years. :yar:
 
Aeroman said:
It's mostly a bunch of coolaid and filler classes the last few years. :yar:
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:yeahthat: I think its important to become a pilot before becoming the "professional pilot" that the school is telling you they are molding you into before recieving your PPL.
 
Thanks for the responses. I do not have as big as of a problem with UND as you think Farvo. I just feel I would prefer it another way. I want to fly more. I can not stand taking breaks in my training. I feel when I will get rid of those breaks my pace goes up by ten fold. I feel a lot of people come to UND because they have not looked into other options and buy into the reputation media machine. I feel like I will be successful if I stay at UND or if I head to Arizona because my motivation. I just want to know what to expect, what to look in finding an instructor, how to get on the part 61 path. Etc.

I have looked a lot at he cost difference and its going to depend a lot on how much extra flying I have to do to fill the cross country IR requirements. If I can find an instructor to give me most of my 40 hour dual given during cross countries, I will be in good shape. The costs would balloon up for ever hour I have to fly in a 152 alone just filling the requirement. I just want to make sure this is realistic. I do not want to go spend 3 to 4k just renting a plane alone getting the xc requirements done.

Most material if not all that UND teaches in the ground school can be learned on your own if you have self discipline.

Instead of attending UND for 5 years to get a double major in Aviation and Finance I can attend ASU for a total of 4 years. (3 more hopefully)
I can get all my ratings done much faster, become a CFI much faster, fly much more, be much closer to my family, girl friend, and friends.

What I need to do is sit down when I get there and make a training syllabus of what I want to read as we go through my training.
 
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