General question to all frieght pilots
- Thread starter mshunter
- Start date
Honestly I can't rate weather on a 1-10 scale. You can't tell how bad it's going to be by looking at the computer before you launch or by comparing to what you flew through a year ago or 5 mins ago. Weather is an animal that will always win in the end. It may let you play with it if you know how but it will always win.
Maybe if I put it this way, if you can put it into words it probably wasn't that bad. You'll see some day. 172s and 182s and Seminoles get knocked around pretty easily.
Freight dawgs will tell stories at the bars about some of the #### they've gone through but you'll know it's been really bad if they don't talk about it at all and you are walking round the sort and they tell one of their buddies "one them nights huh, stay safe".
If you go into this biz thinking you can handle anything you'll probably wash out. True Freight dawgs are humble because they've wondered a time or two if this would be their last leg.
Getting the freight there on time and safely makes a freight dawg. Putting one in a farm field at 2am because you thought you knew it all makes you a fool.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
If you got that ice heading out towards the Mojave then you were <....> for thinking you could cross those mountains from Socal with temps near freezing at your altitude. Those mountains are an ice generating machine in my experience, and anybody that's had that encounter ONCE would be able to figure out it'll happen again.
Further, it's really easy to figure out when there's gonna be a thunderstorm out there; if it's monsoon season and you're flying in the desert, you're going to get your butt pounded. Getting a weather briefing, in case you're blind and can't see the clouds building, is another good way to figure out if there are going to be thunderstorms out there. I mean you're talking about Socal, not Texas. Texas had thunderstorms pop up from no where. Socal? I mean you're gotta be kidding. You're talking about some of the most predictable weather I've ever flown in.
Put simply, you don't sound like you're dangerous, you sound like <...> who has no idea what you're messing with and if all this came out in an interview, I don't know many freight companies that would look at your willful disregard for safety as a positive attribute, they'd look at what you're saying as a liability.
Ahh. I have only had ice 3 times, in three airplanes. So once is enough for me. And belive me, when I did, I got down out of it ASAP. I think you took some of it out of context. The "many times" part was about threading my way (usually on my way home) through the sells of Mojave in the late summer months, when AZ gets it's Monsoon season. Please don't think I am some wreckless haphazard pilot. I know my limitations, and my airplanes limitations. I will not fly when I know it's not safe.
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O.K. For starters, nowhere in this post does it say that I only fly to the Mojave and back, nowhere. I live in Socal, and fly all over the west coast. From Baja to Washington. And I have done some ferrying of airplanes up to Alaska. So watch what you say, as it would probably be uneducated. I gave one example of the kind of flying I do. As for the Mojave, the weather can be unpredictable. I live near there, I see the storms building in the afternoon. But I have also seen it clear, with nothing forcasted, and then at night the cells will build to 40k feet. I live in Socal, I grew up riding the desert, and yes, T-storms do pop up out of no where when your in a 172, at 8-9 feet, tooling along at 110kts. And yes, there are plenty of ways to cross the mountains with out going higher than 8-9k to avoid ice. I can think of two examples--Banning Pass by PSP and follow the 14 FWY by Lancaster near the New Hall pass near L70.
As far as having no idea what I am messing with, maybe I don't. But to say that I don't get a WX brief, come on man. Lets be honest with ourselves. I have a wife and kid at home, who I plan on making it back to. But like I said in a previous post, I know when to tuck tail and run, and I have done so in the past. I know when I am beat. There have been a few times when I have stayed overnight at VGT, and slept in the airplane, because I knew I shouldn't be out flying.
Now, on to the actively seeking bad weather. I am not chasing T-storms and icing. But if it's 500' overcast, it's not going to stop me from flying. I relish in the fact that I can get from point A to point B with never having seen the ground, and popping out of the clouds at 100-200 from mins with the runway right there. It's the most rewarding feeling I ever have had.
This is not a "willful disregard for safety." This is knowing what I can and can not do. When the freezing level is forecast at 12k feet along my route, and I get to 9k, and it's freezing, I will do one of two things either descend to get out of it (I haven't had the chance to fly anything that I can get over it yet), or I will turn back. When I am cruising along in a 172/182/PA-44 and the $#!^ hits the fan, same thing, tuck tail and run/turn around. But when I don't have clear path between, but a 40 mile wide berth for me to slip through, I see no problem with continuing.
Please hold your tongue. Don't assume I am out looking to get myself into trouble. If you think I am doing something stupid, ask the circumstances first. An educated opinion goes a lot further than an irritated/ignorant one. I am here to get knowledge from my piers of things I should be doing, and advice on things that are dangerous, not to be called an idiot or a reckless fool.
O.K. For starters, nowhere in this post does it say that I only fly to the Mojave and back, nowhere. I live in Socal, and fly all over the west coast. From Baja to Washington. And I have done some ferrying of airplanes up to Alaska. So watch what you say, as it would probably be uneducated. I gave one example of the kind of flying I do. As for the Mojave, the weather can be unpredictable. I live near there, I see the storms building in the afternoon. But I have also seen it clear, with nothing forcasted, and then at night the cells will build to 40k feet. I live in Socal, I grew up riding the desert, and yes, T-storms do pop up out of no where when your in a 172, at 8-9 feet, tooling along at 110kts. And yes, there are plenty of ways to cross the mountains with out going higher than 8-9k to avoid ice. I can think of two examples--Banning Pass by PSP and follow the 14 FWY by Lancaster near the New Hall pass near L70.
As far as having no idea what I am messing with, maybe I don't. But to say that I don't get a WX brief, come on man. Lets be honest with ourselves. I have a wife and kid at home, who I plan on making it back to. But like I said in a previous post, I know when to tuck tail and run, and I have done so in the past. I know when I am beat. There have been a few times when I have stayed overnight at VGT, and slept in the airplane, because I knew I shouldn't be out flying.
Now, on to the actively seeking bad weather. I am not chasing T-storms and icing. But if it's 500' overcast, it's not going to stop me from flying. I relish in the fact that I can get from point A to point B with never having seen the ground, and popping out of the clouds at 100-200 from mins with the runway right there. It's the most rewarding feeling I ever have had.
This is not a "willful disregard for safety." This is knowing what I can and can not do. When the freezing level is forecast at 12k feet along my route, and I get to 9k, and it's freezing, I will do one of two things either descend to get out of it (I haven't had the chance to fly anything that I can get over it yet), or I will turn back. When I am cruising along in a 172/182/PA-44 and the $#!^ hits the fan, same thing, tuck tail and run/turn around. But when I don't have clear path between, but a 40 mile wide berth for me to slip through, I see no problem with continuing.
Please hold your tongue. Don't assume I am out looking to get myself into trouble. If you think I am doing something stupid, ask the circumstances first. An educated opinion goes a lot further than an irritated/ignorant one. I am here to get knowledge from my piers of things I should be doing, and advice on things that are dangerous, not to be called an idiot or a reckless fool.
ctab5060X
Well-Known Member
mshunter...
Write that down. That is a pretty good concise summary of freight dawgs and weather.
You say you want to fly freight "because boxes don't bitch". Here is the tricky part though... the owners of those boxes do and can make your life miserable. It doesn't matter if you are flying boxes or people, the principle is still the same. Deliver the cargo (boxes or people) to their destination safely and on time.
Some good advice for you regarding starting a career in 135 box hauling. Listen to the ones who have gone before you. Ask questions. There is a lot of experience here, use it wisely. Remember, sometimes it is wise to read more than you type.
Thanks. I'll try to remember that. I just can't see my self sitting right seat on a CRJ/ERJ for any amount of money. I don't think it would be a good fit for my personality. As for the boxes don't bitch part, I know owners and customers still do, but I don't want to ever face an angry pax because my landing was less than perfect, or we had to sit on the ground for three hours while they de-iced the airplane. Kudos for those of you who do fly 121. Thats a career path for those with much more patience than I.
In freight it's more like, you'll get yelled at for being late because you had to de-ice/
How often are you pressed to fly in conditions that are marginal? I know that the stuff still has to get there, but when I think about that plane that recently went down in NY, it makes me wonder. I know that being the PIC has its advantages of flying in the weather(or rather not flying), but when you have to de-ice before you even go, would you not have a problem in the air as well? I mean how much ice can you realy get trid of with the de-icing equipment on the plane?
ackeight
Well-Known Member
First off everyones definition of marginal varies between person to person and plane to plane. You should gain experience and ask questions to the wiser to try and do it as safe as feasable. The NY crash is still being investigated so I won't touch that with a 10' pole and start a pee pee measuring contest at who can guess why they crashed.
To your next question about being deiced and should you go, here is a perfect real world example that happend a few weeks ago. Usually when you have freezing rain on the ground that requires deicing and a short holdover, there will be warmer air aloft. Sometimes only 1000' higher will get in you warm enough air to where you won't have any ice at all. Just remember if you are a T-prop/jet that goes higher than 10K that air will freeze again and your back in frosties play land. Also, Just because you have to deice doesn't mean that you shouldn't go fly. With a semi experienced deicing crew and good equipment you can get the aircraft clean and ready to fly in a short period of time. Hopefully you have coordinated with ground/tower and ready to go right after deice for the shortest holdover possible and blast off safely.
This is just my POV on your questions.
BTW I'm with you on flying the general public around. I don't think I could do that job. Maybe some corporate stuff would be well suited for me in my later years.
I'll disagree with this one. I have never been questioned when I had to (or felt I had to) deice. Ever.
-mini
[reprinted from JC2003]
That's the world I lived in for a number of years back in the mid-90s. Nothing like having a beat-up Lance/Caravan/Navajo-Chieftain to tool around in hard IFR with.......
But oddly enough, even with the beat-up equipment, there was a note of pride and some satisfaction from recovering to a field out of an NDB or VOR circling approach at mins. I came into Winslow, AZ once during a moderate snowstorm in a PA-31 Chieftain and upon breakout, had to circle for winds (VOR 11, circle to RW 4). WX was snow/freezing drizzle, about 600/1, and I had a frozen co-pilot windshield, was cycling the wing/tail boots, but the hot props didn't appear to be working, since ice would sling off the props into the nose ice shields every 30 seconds or so. I couldn't see the airfield, but did manage to spot a Cessna 441 Conquest parked all by it's lonesome with snow all around it, but couldn't make out the runways or taxiway, plowing hadn't occurred yet and wasn't going to apparently. I was able to maintain circling MDA, could maintain this "airport environment" (of a single parked plane) in sight and could remain within 1.5 miles of the field, so I circled dirty around the airport until I could make out some semblance of which snow strip was actually the runway (the runway lights were covered in snow), and proceeded to land. Upon landing, there was no need for brakes since the snow decelerated the aircraft quick enough; and once I could find a taxiway exit, I was able to generally make out the airport layout based on the positioning of the Conquest, the terminal building, and the lone UPS truck sitting on the ramp. Called FSS to have them pass to ZAB Center that I was actually on the ground. After parking, the UPS guy came over holding a large and heavy chunk of ice shaped like the nose of my Navajo, that had just come off the Navajo's nose. There was varying amounts of ice all over everywhere that didn't have deice or anti-ice protection.
After unloading my boxes and getting my sleeping bag set up in the cargo area, there was time to reflect on a sense of accomplishment in having been able to make the mission happen. As freight dogs, that's what we do. Had I not been able to use some of the breaks I was given on the approach, it would've been missed, try it again, then divert. But a little ingenuity and a few breaks go a long way.
That's the world I lived in for a number of years back in the mid-90s. Nothing like having a beat-up Lance/Caravan/Navajo-Chieftain to tool around in hard IFR with.......
But oddly enough, even with the beat-up equipment, there was a note of pride and some satisfaction from recovering to a field out of an NDB or VOR circling approach at mins. I came into Winslow, AZ once during a moderate snowstorm in a PA-31 Chieftain and upon breakout, had to circle for winds (VOR 11, circle to RW 4). WX was snow/freezing drizzle, about 600/1, and I had a frozen co-pilot windshield, was cycling the wing/tail boots, but the hot props didn't appear to be working, since ice would sling off the props into the nose ice shields every 30 seconds or so. I couldn't see the airfield, but did manage to spot a Cessna 441 Conquest parked all by it's lonesome with snow all around it, but couldn't make out the runways or taxiway, plowing hadn't occurred yet and wasn't going to apparently. I was able to maintain circling MDA, could maintain this "airport environment" (of a single parked plane) in sight and could remain within 1.5 miles of the field, so I circled dirty around the airport until I could make out some semblance of which snow strip was actually the runway (the runway lights were covered in snow), and proceeded to land. Upon landing, there was no need for brakes since the snow decelerated the aircraft quick enough; and once I could find a taxiway exit, I was able to generally make out the airport layout based on the positioning of the Conquest, the terminal building, and the lone UPS truck sitting on the ramp. Called FSS to have them pass to ZAB Center that I was actually on the ground. After parking, the UPS guy came over holding a large and heavy chunk of ice shaped like the nose of my Navajo, that had just come off the Navajo's nose. There was varying amounts of ice all over everywhere that didn't have deice or anti-ice protection.
After unloading my boxes and getting my sleeping bag set up in the cargo area, there was time to reflect on a sense of accomplishment in having been able to make the mission happen. As freight dogs, that's what we do. Had I not been able to use some of the breaks I was given on the approach, it would've been missed, try it again, then divert. But a little ingenuity and a few breaks go a long way.
USMCmech
Well-Known Member
The respectable 135 cargo places will not pressure you to fly any more than a pax airline would (UPS station managers OTOH will). At my company if I say I need deice, no questions asked. If I say I can't make it through those storms, they call the customer and come up with plan B.
That said, there is a huge difference between Unsafe and Uncomfortable. Continious moderate chop is not unsafe, but it ain't fun.
Baronman
Well-Known Member
How right you are.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
mike nailed it in one with the last post. Although I also agree with KLB when he said that if you weren't the sort of person who went in to it thinking you can do anything, you wouldn't be right for freight. I've had a lot of good times, and a few pampers-pooping times. I predict you'll feel similarly in the fullness of time. If I were to attempt to render advice in one sentence, it would be something like "Feel invincible, but don't act like it."
All great points.
I'll add to consider this: you're sitting in the hanger and all your (more experienced) freight buddies are blasting off into weather you really think isn't worth flying in. Your freight buddies nonchalantly grab their clearances and go. You grap a copy of your OPSPECS and read word for word why they're wrong.
What do you do?
I'll add to consider this: you're sitting in the hanger and all your (more experienced) freight buddies are blasting off into weather you really think isn't worth flying in. Your freight buddies nonchalantly grab their clearances and go. You grap a copy of your OPSPECS and read word for word why they're wrong.
What do you do?
Discuss how the conditions just changed since they took off and call the company.