Future Pan Am Flight Academy student
- Thread starter Luke
- Start date
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
Re: \"jetcareers watch dog for misleading advertising\"
"I REALLY hope that you are not so caught up in this that you would make it that personal.:
Good question. I have a bad taste in my mouth about PanAm. If a PanAm grad works his way up through the ranks to the point that he's a UPS pilot, I wouldn't hold it against him.
If someone asks me about what I think of PanAm, I'll have nothing good to say. This is based on my experience with PanAm's marketing and what I've learned about PanAm at this website. Could I take my time to learn more about the school? I suppose, but, until we get past the marketing problem, that's not gonna happen.
Would I recommend someone for a job at UPS who went to PanAm? Highly unlikely...see what I had to say about how I approach networking at a previous post.
"I REALLY hope that you are not so caught up in this that you would make it that personal.:
Good question. I have a bad taste in my mouth about PanAm. If a PanAm grad works his way up through the ranks to the point that he's a UPS pilot, I wouldn't hold it against him.
If someone asks me about what I think of PanAm, I'll have nothing good to say. This is based on my experience with PanAm's marketing and what I've learned about PanAm at this website. Could I take my time to learn more about the school? I suppose, but, until we get past the marketing problem, that's not gonna happen.
Would I recommend someone for a job at UPS who went to PanAm? Highly unlikely...see what I had to say about how I approach networking at a previous post.
Lima_Charlie
New Member
Re: \"jetcareers watch dog for misleading advertising\"
[ QUOTE ]
"I REALLY hope that you are not so caught up in this that you would make it that personal.:
Good question. I have a bad taste in my mouth about PanAm. If a PanAm grad works his way up through the ranks to the point that he's a UPS pilot, I wouldn't hold it against him.
If someone asks me about what I think of PanAm, I'll have nothing good to say. This is based on my experience with PanAm's marketing and what I've learned about PanAm at this website. Could I take my time to learn more about the school? I suppose, but, until we get past the marketing problem, that's not gonna happen.
Would I recommend someone for a job at UPS who went to PanAm? Highly unlikely...see what I had to say about how I approach networking at a previous post.
[/ QUOTE ]
So what I hear you saying is... If a young pilot, by happen stance, began to attend your church, and through the grapevine you heard that his goals included becoming a professional pilot and that he did his training at Pan Am. Would you do nothing to help him, simply because of the marketing practices of the school he attended???
And what does how a company markets have ANYTHING to do with the quality of the people that they train? If someone asked you what you thought of Pan Am pilots, what would you say???? "Oh, their marketing is just a bunch of half-truths! Arrrgggggg!!!" For someone to have such a strong opinion about another organization, I would expect that opinion to have more substance.
You know Don, I am very dissappointed in you right now. For you to be so caught up in a "corporate message" that you hold a blanket grudge against the students is really sad. ( I really hope that I am "reading" too much into your statement.)
[ QUOTE ]
"I REALLY hope that you are not so caught up in this that you would make it that personal.:
Good question. I have a bad taste in my mouth about PanAm. If a PanAm grad works his way up through the ranks to the point that he's a UPS pilot, I wouldn't hold it against him.
If someone asks me about what I think of PanAm, I'll have nothing good to say. This is based on my experience with PanAm's marketing and what I've learned about PanAm at this website. Could I take my time to learn more about the school? I suppose, but, until we get past the marketing problem, that's not gonna happen.
Would I recommend someone for a job at UPS who went to PanAm? Highly unlikely...see what I had to say about how I approach networking at a previous post.
[/ QUOTE ]
So what I hear you saying is... If a young pilot, by happen stance, began to attend your church, and through the grapevine you heard that his goals included becoming a professional pilot and that he did his training at Pan Am. Would you do nothing to help him, simply because of the marketing practices of the school he attended???
And what does how a company markets have ANYTHING to do with the quality of the people that they train? If someone asked you what you thought of Pan Am pilots, what would you say???? "Oh, their marketing is just a bunch of half-truths! Arrrgggggg!!!" For someone to have such a strong opinion about another organization, I would expect that opinion to have more substance.
You know Don, I am very dissappointed in you right now. For you to be so caught up in a "corporate message" that you hold a blanket grudge against the students is really sad. ( I really hope that I am "reading" too much into your statement.)
SmitteyB
Well-Known Member
Re: \"jetcareers watch dog for misleading advertising\"
[ QUOTE ]
So what I hear you saying is... If a young pilot, by happen stance, began to attend your church, and through the grapevine you heard that his goals included becoming a professional pilot and that he did his training at Pan Am. Would you do nothing to help him, simply because of the marketing practices of the school he attended???
[/ QUOTE ]
Why can't you leave peoples personal lives out of it? It's sad to see you stoop this low.
Let's just drop it...Pan Am is wrong. Besides...why would you keep the Pan Am name? That turned me away from the first moment I heard of them...
[ QUOTE ]
So what I hear you saying is... If a young pilot, by happen stance, began to attend your church, and through the grapevine you heard that his goals included becoming a professional pilot and that he did his training at Pan Am. Would you do nothing to help him, simply because of the marketing practices of the school he attended???
[/ QUOTE ]
Why can't you leave peoples personal lives out of it? It's sad to see you stoop this low.
Let's just drop it...Pan Am is wrong. Besides...why would you keep the Pan Am name? That turned me away from the first moment I heard of them...
SmitteyB
Well-Known Member
Re: \"jetcareers watch dog for misleading advertising\"
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Good.. Now go find someone else's Cherrios to piss in!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Cherrios are made up here in Buffalo, the whole waterfront area smells like 'um.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ahh...a fellow upstater! Cold as hell here in Central NY...we were -20F last night.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Good.. Now go find someone else's Cherrios to piss in!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Cherrios are made up here in Buffalo, the whole waterfront area smells like 'um.
[/ QUOTE ]
Ahh...a fellow upstater! Cold as hell here in Central NY...we were -20F last night.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
Re: \"jetcareers watch dog for misleading advertising\"
"You know Don, I am very dissappointed in you right now....
I thought you wanted to play golf with me?
Look. I personally think the PanAm ads and marketing are a disgrace to my profession of 20 plus years. I take the way you portray one side of the story to the newbie as an insult. I really do. Some say....oh, it's not that big of a deal, just look the other way. It's a big deal to me.
"You know Don, I am very dissappointed in you right now....
I thought you wanted to play golf with me?
Look. I personally think the PanAm ads and marketing are a disgrace to my profession of 20 plus years. I take the way you portray one side of the story to the newbie as an insult. I really do. Some say....oh, it's not that big of a deal, just look the other way. It's a big deal to me.
Lima_Charlie
New Member
Re: \"jetcareers watch dog for misleading advertising\"
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So what I hear you saying is... If a young pilot, by happen stance, began to attend your church, and through the grapevine you heard that his goals included becoming a professional pilot and that he did his training at Pan Am. Would you do nothing to help him, simply because of the marketing practices of the school he attended???
[/ QUOTE ]
Why can't you leave peoples personal lives out of it? It's sad to see you stoop this low.
Let's just drop it...Pan Am is wrong. Besides...why would you keep the Pan Am name? That turned me away from the first moment I heard of them...
[/ QUOTE ]
And why did the mere words happening upon your delicate ears give you such a reaction? Were you that upset about the demise of the airline? Or could you just not bring yourself to believe that the sole surviving piece of the former Pan American Airlines was training future professional pilots? Do tell!!!
Oh, and the personal lives thing... I am just trying to understand what was truly said. How am I getting "personal" by illustrating a fairly realistic situation? If I am wrong, I am sure that I will be corrected. I am okay with that...
By the way, the "stooping" happens when the uninformed make unwarranted attacks. Don, albeit very experienced in the industry, has formed his opinion on Pan Am and subsequently the pilots that come from Pan Am, solely on the marketing material. I find that unfortunate, as he seems like a very level headed individual in other forums that I have read.
And you Smitty... What has brought you to the conclusion that "Pan Am is wrong". Do you have direct experience w/ PA? Have you done any other research on PA, other than what you have read here? Do you know anything about the level of expertise that we are held to? Have you taken the time to read through all of the Turkey's posts? He seems to be a fairly successful individual, even though "Pan Am is wrong", as you so elequently put it. "The price... Its outrageous!!" Maybe to you, but to me, to Turk, and few other hundred people, we see the value. Just because you don't, you don't see me tearing you down. I am happy for you that your chosen course of training is working out for you! Keep it up!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So what I hear you saying is... If a young pilot, by happen stance, began to attend your church, and through the grapevine you heard that his goals included becoming a professional pilot and that he did his training at Pan Am. Would you do nothing to help him, simply because of the marketing practices of the school he attended???
[/ QUOTE ]
Why can't you leave peoples personal lives out of it? It's sad to see you stoop this low.
Let's just drop it...Pan Am is wrong. Besides...why would you keep the Pan Am name? That turned me away from the first moment I heard of them...
[/ QUOTE ]
And why did the mere words happening upon your delicate ears give you such a reaction? Were you that upset about the demise of the airline? Or could you just not bring yourself to believe that the sole surviving piece of the former Pan American Airlines was training future professional pilots? Do tell!!!
Oh, and the personal lives thing... I am just trying to understand what was truly said. How am I getting "personal" by illustrating a fairly realistic situation? If I am wrong, I am sure that I will be corrected. I am okay with that...
By the way, the "stooping" happens when the uninformed make unwarranted attacks. Don, albeit very experienced in the industry, has formed his opinion on Pan Am and subsequently the pilots that come from Pan Am, solely on the marketing material. I find that unfortunate, as he seems like a very level headed individual in other forums that I have read.
And you Smitty... What has brought you to the conclusion that "Pan Am is wrong". Do you have direct experience w/ PA? Have you done any other research on PA, other than what you have read here? Do you know anything about the level of expertise that we are held to? Have you taken the time to read through all of the Turkey's posts? He seems to be a fairly successful individual, even though "Pan Am is wrong", as you so elequently put it. "The price... Its outrageous!!" Maybe to you, but to me, to Turk, and few other hundred people, we see the value. Just because you don't, you don't see me tearing you down. I am happy for you that your chosen course of training is working out for you! Keep it up!
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
Re: \"jetcareers watch dog for misleading advertising\"
Now I'm replying to myself. Time to get off the computer for a while.
I think the way a school markets itself is a direct indication of it's character. Just like way a person portrays himself is an indication of his character. Both should have high standards in all things.
I just posted a link to one of PanAm's marketing pages at my UPS pilot group message forum. We'll see what some of my brethren have to say. I'll post the comments here good and bad. Maybe Jetcareers will even pick up a few new members....
Now I'm replying to myself. Time to get off the computer for a while.
I think the way a school markets itself is a direct indication of it's character. Just like way a person portrays himself is an indication of his character. Both should have high standards in all things.
I just posted a link to one of PanAm's marketing pages at my UPS pilot group message forum. We'll see what some of my brethren have to say. I'll post the comments here good and bad. Maybe Jetcareers will even pick up a few new members....
Lima_Charlie
New Member
Re: \"jetcareers watch dog for misleading advertising\"
[ QUOTE ]
"You know Don, I am very dissappointed in you right now....
I thought you wanted to play golf with me?
Look. I personally think the PanAm ads and marketing are a disgrace to my profession of 20 plus years. I take the way you portray one side of the story to the newbie as an insult. I really do. Some say....oh, it's not that big of a deal, just look the other way. It's a big deal to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just because I am disappointed in someone, doesn't mean I am not willing to spend time to get to know the person. I am not that closed minded...
[ QUOTE ]
"You know Don, I am very dissappointed in you right now....
I thought you wanted to play golf with me?
Look. I personally think the PanAm ads and marketing are a disgrace to my profession of 20 plus years. I take the way you portray one side of the story to the newbie as an insult. I really do. Some say....oh, it's not that big of a deal, just look the other way. It's a big deal to me.
[/ QUOTE ]
Just because I am disappointed in someone, doesn't mean I am not willing to spend time to get to know the person. I am not that closed minded...
Re: \"jetcareers watch dog for misleading advertising\"
Hey guys/gals, brand new user and first time poster. I am a Pan Am grad, former Pan am instructor and currently flying for a regional airline (the interview for which the chief pilots helped prep me for and provided free crj ftd time)
After reading DE727UPS' post I had to respond and unfortunately it will not be positive.
The fact that one wouldnt provide a LOR for a pan am grad because of Pan Am's marketing department is ludicrous. Since when are LORs written based on the flight school a kid attended? I guess I didnt realize my character and abilities as a person and pilot came straight from Pan Am's marketing department or from their corporate philosophy.
If offered I would never accept a LOR from you Mr. UPS as you have demonstrated in a mere few lines your shallowness of character (but I guess Id never even have the opportunity since Im from *gasp* Pan Am) and would expect a professional pilot such as yourself to exercise a little more judgment before making such absurd comments. Try doing some real research (other than crap said here) before you cut down a school and its people.
Allright everyone, I'm behind the berm, shoot away.
fly safe
Hey guys/gals, brand new user and first time poster. I am a Pan Am grad, former Pan am instructor and currently flying for a regional airline (the interview for which the chief pilots helped prep me for and provided free crj ftd time)
After reading DE727UPS' post I had to respond and unfortunately it will not be positive.
If offered I would never accept a LOR from you Mr. UPS as you have demonstrated in a mere few lines your shallowness of character (but I guess Id never even have the opportunity since Im from *gasp* Pan Am) and would expect a professional pilot such as yourself to exercise a little more judgment before making such absurd comments. Try doing some real research (other than crap said here) before you cut down a school and its people.
Allright everyone, I'm behind the berm, shoot away.
fly safe
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
Re: \"jetcareers watch dog for misleading advertising\"
I went back and looked up what I said earlier, see below:
1. If a PanAm grad works his way up through the ranks to the point that he's a UPS pilot, I wouldn't hold it against him.
2. Would I recommend someone for a job at UPS who went to PanAm? Highly unlikely...
Perhaps this is confusing. So, let me clarify. I only recommend my close friends who I've flown with before for a job at UPS (This is how UPS wants it). I recommended two guys about three months ago, both RJ check airman, both guys who worked their way up from humble small flight school beginnings. One of them interviewed last Monday and is waiting to hear back.
I said it's not likely, not impossible, that I'd ever recommend anyone from PanAm. For that to happen, I would have had to flown with the person enough to know if they are a good pilot. The guys I've recommended so far, I actually have been involved with their IFR ratings. It's just not likely that I'm going to be in a position to recommend anyone who's gone to PanAm...I'll leave it at that rather than going on more about why that is.
So...it's not directly because of the PanAm marketing that I wouldn't recommend someone from PanAm for a job, as you say.
"Since when are LORs written based on the flight school a kid attended?"
Are you saying where you train isn't important in considering giving a LOR?
"If offered I would never accept a LOR from you Mr. UPS as you have demonstrated in a mere few lines your shallowness of character"
Ah...here we go again. Another personal attack. Pretty easy to do at an anonomus internet forum where your name is Lima Charlie, Flying Turkey, or Skyrex.
"Try doing some real research (other than crap said here) before you cut down a school and its people."
Even if I came to your school, I could never support it with your marketing and website being what it is. As I've said before, if you fix the marketing, I could easily become PanAm neutral. Until then, like I've also said before, I don't think your banner should be at this site. My research is nothing more than looking at your website and the overall take of what I read hear and at other forums. Neither is all that great. I could link you to a thread at flightinfo.com that makes anything said here pale in comparasion.
Because what I know of all the academies, not just PanAm, is not based on personal experience, I always encourage prospective students to ignore the marketing and go take a tour and decide for themselves what's best.
I went back and looked up what I said earlier, see below:
1. If a PanAm grad works his way up through the ranks to the point that he's a UPS pilot, I wouldn't hold it against him.
2. Would I recommend someone for a job at UPS who went to PanAm? Highly unlikely...
Perhaps this is confusing. So, let me clarify. I only recommend my close friends who I've flown with before for a job at UPS (This is how UPS wants it). I recommended two guys about three months ago, both RJ check airman, both guys who worked their way up from humble small flight school beginnings. One of them interviewed last Monday and is waiting to hear back.
I said it's not likely, not impossible, that I'd ever recommend anyone from PanAm. For that to happen, I would have had to flown with the person enough to know if they are a good pilot. The guys I've recommended so far, I actually have been involved with their IFR ratings. It's just not likely that I'm going to be in a position to recommend anyone who's gone to PanAm...I'll leave it at that rather than going on more about why that is.
So...it's not directly because of the PanAm marketing that I wouldn't recommend someone from PanAm for a job, as you say.
"Since when are LORs written based on the flight school a kid attended?"
Are you saying where you train isn't important in considering giving a LOR?
"If offered I would never accept a LOR from you Mr. UPS as you have demonstrated in a mere few lines your shallowness of character"
Ah...here we go again. Another personal attack. Pretty easy to do at an anonomus internet forum where your name is Lima Charlie, Flying Turkey, or Skyrex.
"Try doing some real research (other than crap said here) before you cut down a school and its people."
Even if I came to your school, I could never support it with your marketing and website being what it is. As I've said before, if you fix the marketing, I could easily become PanAm neutral. Until then, like I've also said before, I don't think your banner should be at this site. My research is nothing more than looking at your website and the overall take of what I read hear and at other forums. Neither is all that great. I could link you to a thread at flightinfo.com that makes anything said here pale in comparasion.
Because what I know of all the academies, not just PanAm, is not based on personal experience, I always encourage prospective students to ignore the marketing and go take a tour and decide for themselves what's best.
Lima_Charlie
New Member
Re: \"jetcareers watch dog for misleading advertising\"
"Perhaps this is confusing. So, let me clarify. I only recommend my close friends who I've flown with before for a job at UPS (This is how UPS wants it). I recommended two guys about three months ago, both RJ check airman, both guys who worked their way up from humble small flight school beginnings. One of them interviewed last Monday and is waiting to hear back.
I said it's not likely, not impossible, that I'd ever recommend anyone from PanAm. For that to happen, I would have had to flown with the person enough to know if they are a good pilot. The guys I've recommended so far, I actually have been involved with their IFR ratings. It's just not likely that I'm going to be in a position to recommend anyone who's gone to PanAm...I'll leave it at that rather than going on more about why that is."
I can swallow this so much easier than that way you put it before. In fact I agree with you. How can anyone expect you to give them an LOA if they have never flown with you. Doing that is a recipe for disaster... Your rep is on the line anytime you walk in a resume! Agree?
"Perhaps this is confusing. So, let me clarify. I only recommend my close friends who I've flown with before for a job at UPS (This is how UPS wants it). I recommended two guys about three months ago, both RJ check airman, both guys who worked their way up from humble small flight school beginnings. One of them interviewed last Monday and is waiting to hear back.
I said it's not likely, not impossible, that I'd ever recommend anyone from PanAm. For that to happen, I would have had to flown with the person enough to know if they are a good pilot. The guys I've recommended so far, I actually have been involved with their IFR ratings. It's just not likely that I'm going to be in a position to recommend anyone who's gone to PanAm...I'll leave it at that rather than going on more about why that is."
I can swallow this so much easier than that way you put it before. In fact I agree with you. How can anyone expect you to give them an LOA if they have never flown with you. Doing that is a recipe for disaster... Your rep is on the line anytime you walk in a resume! Agree?
pilot602
If specified, this will replace the title that
Re: \"jetcareers watch dog for misleading advertising\"
All I know is I get folks from UND, MAPD, and other "big schools" who come into my FBO for a checkout because they can't rent an airplane (which is a friggin joke in and of itself) and when they walk in they know nothing. Sure, they have V speeds and various numbers memorized, checklists memorized and can point the airplane around the sky fairly consistently but actual knowledge or skill is lacking if not void.
In fact we had one guy from MAPD fail an aircraft checkout and then he proceeded to tell the instructor who was doing his checkout he "got a good education." Apparently not, because you just failed an aircraft checkout!
Common problems:
1) WIDE patterns (a 172 doesn't need a five mile final).
2) Full flaps, and power to fly final (sure you can fly a 172 that way but it aint right).
3) No PIC decision making skills (i.e. "do you have temp outs?" i.e. the school determines when they can and can't fly depending on temperature)
4) No idea how to do simple weight and balance equations (w x a = m)
5) Don't even know how to fill out their own logbooks
There's nothing inherently wrong with big schools it's just you can get the same certificates from an FBO and save a few bucks. In the end it's to each their own but from my point of view there are far more "academy" types being pumped out with lacking skills and knowledge than those who are "airline trained."
Your milage may vary.
All I know is I get folks from UND, MAPD, and other "big schools" who come into my FBO for a checkout because they can't rent an airplane (which is a friggin joke in and of itself) and when they walk in they know nothing. Sure, they have V speeds and various numbers memorized, checklists memorized and can point the airplane around the sky fairly consistently but actual knowledge or skill is lacking if not void.
In fact we had one guy from MAPD fail an aircraft checkout and then he proceeded to tell the instructor who was doing his checkout he "got a good education." Apparently not, because you just failed an aircraft checkout!
Common problems:
1) WIDE patterns (a 172 doesn't need a five mile final).
2) Full flaps, and power to fly final (sure you can fly a 172 that way but it aint right).
3) No PIC decision making skills (i.e. "do you have temp outs?" i.e. the school determines when they can and can't fly depending on temperature)
4) No idea how to do simple weight and balance equations (w x a = m)
5) Don't even know how to fill out their own logbooks
There's nothing inherently wrong with big schools it's just you can get the same certificates from an FBO and save a few bucks. In the end it's to each their own but from my point of view there are far more "academy" types being pumped out with lacking skills and knowledge than those who are "airline trained."
Your milage may vary.
flybimmer
New Member
Re: \"jetcareers watch dog for misleading advertising\"
I guess since you've been spending all your hard earned off time posting on this site you haven't seen those UPS commercials that center around NASCAR with the end statement, "We Want To Race the Truck"?
Well, I want to fly the truck. Oh well, I thought it was funny.
But you must admit...it's pretty good marketing!
Or is marketing bad?
I just always assumed marketing (no matter for whom) was mostly untrue, anyways.
Oh well...now I am just typing to see the letters. I'm sure there's better things to do.
I guess since you've been spending all your hard earned off time posting on this site you haven't seen those UPS commercials that center around NASCAR with the end statement, "We Want To Race the Truck"?
Well, I want to fly the truck. Oh well, I thought it was funny.
But you must admit...it's pretty good marketing!
Or is marketing bad?
I just always assumed marketing (no matter for whom) was mostly untrue, anyways.
Oh well...now I am just typing to see the letters. I'm sure there's better things to do.
DE727UPS
Well-Known Member
Re: \"jetcareers watch dog for misleading advertising\"
"I just always assumed marketing (no matter for whom) was mostly untrue, anyways."
I know I'm old school, but dishonesty bothers me.
You're right, I don't watch a lot of TV. I get the 8 channels or so my antenna pics up.
Sorry I didn't get your joke but when I see the commercial, I'll know what you are talking about.
"I just always assumed marketing (no matter for whom) was mostly untrue, anyways."
I know I'm old school, but dishonesty bothers me.
You're right, I don't watch a lot of TV. I get the 8 channels or so my antenna pics up.
Sorry I didn't get your joke but when I see the commercial, I'll know what you are talking about.
TheFlyingTurkey
Fetus Worshiper
Re: \"jetcareers watch dog for misleading advertising\"
[ QUOTE ]
Ah...here we go again. Another personal attack. Pretty easy to do at an anonomus internet forum where your name is Lima Charlie, Flying Turkey, or Skyrex.
[/ QUOTE ]
I am not anonomus. Everyone knows who I am. I dont hide my name or my email address. And please dont ever use my name in another one of your posts.
[ QUOTE ]
Ah...here we go again. Another personal attack. Pretty easy to do at an anonomus internet forum where your name is Lima Charlie, Flying Turkey, or Skyrex.
[/ QUOTE ]
I am not anonomus. Everyone knows who I am. I dont hide my name or my email address. And please dont ever use my name in another one of your posts.