D Bergendorf
Well-Known Member
In a declared emergency, with a distressed A/C being vectored by TRACON or Center, does ATC have the pilot switch radio frequency? Do any of the A/C under control change frequency?
Freq change in emergencies
- Thread starter D Bergendorf
- Start date
It depends on the situation. Sometimes the controller speaking to the aircraft is not in a good position to provide the services the aircraft needs. In cases like that, if the pilot is willing/able, the controller will ask the pilot to switch frequencies. There are other times where the controller is able to provide the best service, and will switch other aircraft to different frequencies to free up time to work the emergency.
genot
Well-Known Member
Like what Mark said, whatever provides the best service and best outcome at least pilot effort.
I've lost radios with an emergency before as a TRACON guy, reestablished contact via relay with a tower on guard, then back to no relay on guard then gave what I hope is my first and only landing clearance. The workload behind the scenes took 5 of us in the TRACON and two tower cab staff worth of controllers. Temporary ground stops at every airport in the airspace. Luckily it was very early in the AM and my only plane or we'd be splitting out any frequency the pilot in question wasn't on.
I've lost radios with an emergency before as a TRACON guy, reestablished contact via relay with a tower on guard, then back to no relay on guard then gave what I hope is my first and only landing clearance. The workload behind the scenes took 5 of us in the TRACON and two tower cab staff worth of controllers. Temporary ground stops at every airport in the airspace. Luckily it was very early in the AM and my only plane or we'd be splitting out any frequency the pilot in question wasn't on.
genot
Well-Known Member
This reminded me of an instructor going through the academy I was in class with (they spend one turn actually going through on initial hire). Come class introduction time "Yeah my name is Joe, I spent 30 years at the common I, they called me flamer." Digging deeper it turned out he was possibly the only person to shut down NYC for two airplanes. Supervisor runs over asking what the problem is. "Fire". Which one? "Both"
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
I once declared an emergency going in to Charlotte due to a runaway stabilizer trim in the CRJ. We'd caught in relatively early so the plane was controllable but due to the stabs position I was planning a no flap landing and was thinking it was going to involve both the FO and I pulling back on the elevator as the speed got slow. This happened in cruise and after Atlanta Center passed us off to Charlotte approach the first thing the controller did was ask how controllable the plane was right then and if we were ok with holding for a little bit. Turns out they had two other emergencies inbound (one was a suspected fuel leak) and ours was considered the "least" serious.
@MikeD I think has told a story about something similar to this as well.
genot
Well-Known Member
MikeD has the king of all of these stories. I've had multiple emergencies also. I've had ones bad enough to name ulcers after. Most of the humor in my post involves the clueless supervisor and how we on the scopes deal with it.
You guys asked, so here it is......
"It was definitely an exception of a day, but one that can happen when WX drops suddenly and unexpectedly and you have a bunch of jets airborne that can't divert.
In my situation in Korea, I had a failure of one side of my electrical system while IMC, a definite emergency in the 117 due to both the FBW dependency on it and now running on battery power, as well as multiple cockpit systems that load shed. About 80 miles from base, I declare an IFE with the Korean center, then am handed to the approach controller who wants to know the nature of my emergency in more detail. I let him know what I've got, and the potential for further electrical problems, and knowing the WX being ~150-200' and 1/2 mile, the only useable approach was the PAR into the prime base. I'm pretty much expecting to be THE priority due to both my aircraft type as well as my emergency that could very well turn extremely serious. Expecting to get automatically vectored in and preparing to take vectors to a handoff to the PAR final controller shortly, I'm instead given a published hold to enter, as there are 23 other fighters trying to get in at various distances from the field and in the radar pattern, and I'm the #7 IFE in progress, the other ones being an F-16 with a lightning strike that has limited electrics who's being led in by his wingman through the WX on a formation penetration, 4 others (2 x F-4s, and 2 x F-5s) who are emergency fuel or nearing it, and one other with a hydraulics malfunction. So now my emergency is kind of second rate....I mean, I still have electrics unlike the F-16....though they're not working that good and could go out at any time, but I'm not about to flame out any minute either like the two F-4s, and the two F-5s. Considering all that, there was NO way I could say "unable" and just come barreling inbound and penetrate the WX on my own; as my problems were now minor in comparison with the others, even if I was in the most expensive of all the aircraft almost combined. So, I entered a hold for other emergency traffic to recover, until I could be given vectors to the GCA final controller for my own recovery; knowing that if my remaining electrics fail, my jet will be nothing more than a brick and I'd have to jump out of it. But that's the cards I'm dealt and have to play; what the hell else am I going to do? The flight ops and ATC Sups made a call on priority, and that's that, especially with nowhere else close to go that would save time.
Granted, this is a very extreme example, yes, but still one that shows that while you may have used the "E word", it might not always mean that traffic INSTANTLY stops and is cleared for you, and the controllers workload and attention can just automatically go to you. As I said, you've now just unintentionally become a royal pain in the ass to ATC, especially when there's a combo of high traffic, low WX, and/or other emergencies in progress."
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You can do an SFA, or Single Frequency Approach. This is especially used in single-seat fighter-type aircraft, where radio selectors may not be conveniently located, and where attempting to change frequencies in the WX....or especially with an emergency in the WX can be tasking or potentially Spatial-D inducing. Granted, these are at specific fields and are by an letter of agreement, but you can request it and should likely be able to get it in an emergency.
From the Pilot/Controller Glossary:
SINGLE FREQUENCY APPROACH- A service provided under a letter of agreement to military single-piloted turbojet aircraft which permits use of a single UHF frequency during approach for landing. Pilots will not normally be required to change frequency from the beginning of the approach to touchdown except that pilots conducting an en route descent are required to change frequency when control is transferred from the air route traffic control center to the terminal facility. The abbreviation "SFA" in the DOD FLIP IFR Supplement under "Communications" indicates this service is available at an aerodrome.
Reminded me......
When i was assigned to South Korea one day, I was making a fuel/WX divert into RKNW/K-46, and approach was calling 600/1.5 in rain/fog. Switching to the ROKAF PAR final controller, I get talked down to DH, only to see nothing and go missed, back around the radar pattern. Re-confirming the WX, it's calling 600/1.5 again (PAR mins 100-1/4). Come back around again, down the chute, and go missed. After two more laps around the pattern (and no where else to go), I finally grab a small break in the WX allowing me to pick up the airfield perimeter road and defenses below and slightly ahead (good enough for govt work regards airfield environment), and land. Stuck there for a while, I head to the ROKAF tower to talk to their SOF (Supervisor of Flying), and ask the tower how they have 1.5sm when I can't even see the other side of the runway? Tower controller says (korean accent) "I see 3/4 mile that way, 3/4 mile that way....visibility 1.5 mile". Of course, none of their home-station planes are flying either.
The TF was calling for 1.5 apparently, and the ROK (enlisted) observers apparently don't observe anything less that what the ROK (officer) forecaster forecasted, regardless of whats actually showing outside.
When i was assigned to South Korea one day, I was making a fuel/WX divert into RKNW/K-46, and approach was calling 600/1.5 in rain/fog. Switching to the ROKAF PAR final controller, I get talked down to DH, only to see nothing and go missed, back around the radar pattern. Re-confirming the WX, it's calling 600/1.5 again (PAR mins 100-1/4). Come back around again, down the chute, and go missed. After two more laps around the pattern (and no where else to go), I finally grab a small break in the WX allowing me to pick up the airfield perimeter road and defenses below and slightly ahead (good enough for govt work regards airfield environment), and land. Stuck there for a while, I head to the ROKAF tower to talk to their SOF (Supervisor of Flying), and ask the tower how they have 1.5sm when I can't even see the other side of the runway? Tower controller says (korean accent) "I see 3/4 mile that way, 3/4 mile that way....visibility 1.5 mile". Of course, none of their home-station planes are flying either.
The TF was calling for 1.5 apparently, and the ROK (enlisted) observers apparently don't observe anything less that what the ROK (officer) forecaster forecasted, regardless of whats actually showing outside.
PAR mins should say 100-1/4(depending on controller ability)
Vector4Food
This job would be easier without all the airplanes
Depends on the situation, current frequency coverage, and a thousand other variables.
Generally speaking, it depends on the emergency. During a rapid decompression, we GENERALLY will not switch freq's until the flight is at 10K and stabilized, no need to add workload.
Smoke in the cockpit, fire, any other "Major" emergency, we will attempt minimal frequency changes... (High en-route switching right to a terminal airspace bypass a low sector) again to alleviate workload.
Single engine failure in just about every situation, frequency changes as normal, as generally they're not a "Major" emergency once the crew has their checklist complete.
I will give a lot of "When able contact XXXX on 135.25"
Similar for things like altimeter settings in for example a rapid decompression "Altimeter is 30.01 no response required"
It's a conflicting sense of trying to offer valuable information without overloading the crew in a very busy situation.
Generally speaking, it depends on the emergency. During a rapid decompression, we GENERALLY will not switch freq's until the flight is at 10K and stabilized, no need to add workload.
Smoke in the cockpit, fire, any other "Major" emergency, we will attempt minimal frequency changes... (High en-route switching right to a terminal airspace bypass a low sector) again to alleviate workload.
Single engine failure in just about every situation, frequency changes as normal, as generally they're not a "Major" emergency once the crew has their checklist complete.
I will give a lot of "When able contact XXXX on 135.25"
Similar for things like altimeter settings in for example a rapid decompression "Altimeter is 30.01 no response required"
It's a conflicting sense of trying to offer valuable information without overloading the crew in a very busy situation.
spoolinup22
Well-Known Member
I had an engine failure in a Baron over SBN. Approach led us all the way and eventually cleared us to land.
Once we landed he told us to contact ground. So just depends on the scenario.
Once we landed he told us to contact ground. So just depends on the scenario.