Freedom List

MissedApproach

Well-Known Member
I imagine as aviation is a small community, some of you might know a few of these people.

FREEDOM INITIAL CLASS

List sent to Doug if he wants to re insert it it is his choice.


If one of the mods wants to censor this I will understand, but I think it is important that these people don't get away with undermining ALPA.
 

aloft

New Member
Re: Freedom Scab List

As a student pilot, you have absolutely no business throwing the S word around--particularly when it's clear you don't understand what it means. The people at Freedom (which doesn't even exist anymore) aren't scabs.

The mods need to nip this one in the bud post-haste.
 

giants_fan

New Member
Re: Freedom Scab List

Got to agree with Aloft. They aren't scabs, by definition. Some of them may lack less than perfect loyalty to their fellow Mesa pilots, but I have a lot of friends on that list.
 

Eagle

New Member
Re: Freedom Scab List

Edited and sent to Doug.

It is poor form to be listing people's names in these forums.
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
Re: Freedom Scab List

Scab is a pretty serious word. The only problem I'd have posting this is that, while I may not like Mesa and their business methods, I'm also not a card-carrying ALPA member, and therefore, feel no need to push their "scab" agenda.

The forum likewise doesn't work for Freedom/Mesa, nor does it work for ALPA.
 

MissedApproach

Well-Known Member
Re: Freedom Scab List

Looking back that was an immature thing to do. That list is going around another forum and certainly isn't without controversy.

[ QUOTE ]
The people at Freedom (which doesn't even exist anymore) aren't scabs.

[/ QUOTE ] That list only included those in the initial freedom class. The people that went over before ALPA ratified the contract. The beef isn't so much with the people that went over after.

Mesa and Freedom are now being consolidated so its less of an issue now.
 

aloft

New Member
Re: Freedom Scab List

[ QUOTE ]
That list only included those in the initial freedom class. The people that went over before ALPA ratified the contract. The beef isn't so much with the people that went over after.

[/ QUOTE ]Point #1: There's only one way to become a scab, and that's by crossing a picket line and taking struck work. Period, end of story. Did anyone at Freedom -- including those on your little list -- fly struck work? No.

Point #2: you have no dog in the fight, it's not your beef.

"Never pass up an opportunity to keep your mouth shut."
 

MissedApproach

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
Did anyone at Freedom -- including those on your little list -- fly struck work? No.

[/ QUOTE ] Agreed, scab is the wrong word to use in this situation.
[ QUOTE ]
you have no dog in the fight, it's not your beef.

[/ QUOTE ] I write some pretty fat checks to Mesa Airlines, I think I have a say albeit a small one.

[ QUOTE ]
"Never pass up an opportunity to keep your mouth shut."

[/ QUOTE ] Even while people undermine the profession?

Again, it was immature to post that list.

Aloft, check your PM's.
 

giants_fan

New Member
Re: Freedom Scab List

I agree with not calling them scabs, but I can't say I minded seeing the list. You can find this list in the Mesa contract over at the contract site, whatever it is. It's not a private list by any means and is available in a bunch of other locations.

These guys didn't help the negotiating process any, so I don't know what you call them, but they definitely are not scabs.

What's important is that you don't call a Freedom guy a scab, especially if he is post-contract Freedom! There are CCAir guys, USAir J4J guys, and all kinds of other situations where it was work for Freedom or hit Home Depot.

I resent the Mesa guys went over, of course, but I'm not going to call them names. They did what they thought was right and I'll just file that in the back of my empty head somewhere


I was not aware that the Freedom certificate had been surrendered either. They are still flying 700s and 900s for AW Ex as far as I know. The transition hasn't been completed yet has it?
 

MissedApproach

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
What's important is that you don't call a Freedom guy a scab, especially if he is post-contract Freedom!

[/ QUOTE ] That's why I keep stressing that these were the pre-contract guys. This seems to be getting lost on alot of people. Their desire to fly CRJ-700's and 900's was so great that they would undermine the industry and do it for minimal wages.
[ QUOTE ]
I was not aware that the Freedom certificate had been surrendered either. They are still flying 700s and 900s for AW Ex as far as I know. The transition hasn't been completed yet has it?

[/ QUOTE ] I believe that the plans are complete but I certainly haven't seen them. I know Freedom is still flying the 700's and exclusively the 900's.
 

Mr_Creepy

Well-Known Member
Got to back up Will and Aloft on this one. They aren't scabs. Somewhere higher up on the food chain


Sorry I've been gone, been incredibly busy!
 

DE727UPS

Well-Known Member
Re: Freedom Scab List

[ QUOTE ]
Scab is a pretty serious word. The only problem I'd have posting this is that, while I may not like Mesa and their business methods, I'm also not a card-carrying ALPA member, and therefore, feel no need to push their "scab" agenda.

The forum likewise doesn't work for Freedom/Mesa, nor does it work for ALPA.

[/ QUOTE ]

While the forum may not work for ALPA, I think you'll find the forum's owner has a pretty strong opinion on Freedom airlines. Hence Doug's post on Sept 17th, 2002:

"BTW, I'll be down next week helping America West and Mesa pilots picket Freedom Air next week here in Phoenix!"
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
Re: Freedom Scab List

[ QUOTE ]

While the forum may not work for ALPA, I think you'll find the forum's owner has a pretty strong opinion on Freedom airlines. Hence Doug's post on Sept 17th, 2002:

"BTW, I'll be down next week helping America West and Mesa pilots picket Freedom Air next week here in Phoenix!"

[/ QUOTE ]

Good call. I remember that now. I'm just trying to keep some neutrality in the sense that posting names of people with a scab tattoo is pretty serious, and could have some serious future consequences. Personally, I think some ALPA guys take some of this crap way too far. Like when I had a 4-striper FE cross-checking my airline ID to his "little black book" when I was jumping a United DC-10 from ORD to PHX. He wanted to know if I was "one of them Eastern types." Never mind the fact that I was 17 when all that was going down, so I found his paranoia mildly amusing.
 

Bog

New Member
Re: Freedom Scab List

Maybe the "official" definition of scab doesn't apply here, and yeah none of these people crossed a picket line, but what they did to our ability to negotiate a contract was the same.

When the term "scab" was created, there was not a soul on earth who would have envisioned the Freedom debacle.

Because of "them," many PHX based pilots were junior-assigned to PHL flying, while pilots VERY junior to them were sitting fat and happy in PHX in their shiny new CR9s.

Because of "them," my per diem rate, my payrate, my work rules, my days off, and just about everything else still sits at the bottom of the industry.

Because of "them," morale at what could be a great airline is the lowest in history.

As a business major in college, I hated unions. I swore I'd never join one. After the events of the past 2 years, while I admit that ALPA is in need of serious upgrades, I will never leave my union. When 95% of a pilot group says NO, it is not because of threats or fear of being blackballed or anything else. It is common sense.

There is no way to justify the claim of pilots with less than one year of seniority who chose Freedom because, in their words, "my career isn't moving fast enough." That wreaks of greed.

You can love the union, you can hate the union, but you must always remember that it is wrong to stab your fellow pilots in the back.

-B
 

MissedApproach

Well-Known Member
Well said Bogberto! The Freedom situation seems to be one of the most misunderstood in the industry.

It's great to see you here, when you need a break from moderating the "lounge" this is the place to go!
 

aloft

New Member
Pot Calls Kettle Black...Film at 11.

Couple things:

a) Freedom is water under the bridge. You wanna hate somebody, hate Mesa's management for doing this to you.

b) How Mesa pilots feel about the original Freedom pilots is pretty much how the rest of the industry feels about Mesa pilots.

This is all much ado over spilt milk...or something. One thing's for sure; dwelling on the past won't improve it. Things like propagating "scab" lists only serve to keep everyone focused on the past. Worry about things you still have control over...like the future.
 

MissedApproach

Well-Known Member
Re: Pot Calls Kettle Black...Film at 11.

[ QUOTE ]
Freedom is water under the bridge.

[/ QUOTE ] Only when Freedom stops flying and is terminated will it be "water under the bridge."
[ QUOTE ]
You wanna hate somebody, hate Mesa's management for doing this to you.

[/ QUOTE ] The initial freedom pilots made it so much more easy for JO to do what he did. In doing so they also demonstrated that management can get away with it. Mesa's management certainly isn't without it's own contempt from the pilot group.
[ QUOTE ]
One thing's for sure; dwelling on the past won't improve it. Things like propagating "scab" lists only serve to keep everyone focused on the past.

[/ QUOTE ] One could say the list is used to intimidate all pilots from trying something similar in the future (by making an example of them). Such action isn't morally correct, but stabbing your pilot group in the back isn't really smiled upon either. "Those ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it."
[ QUOTE ]
Worry about things you still have control over...like the future.

[/ QUOTE ] Good advice.
 

DE727UPS

Well-Known Member
Re: Pot Calls Kettle Black...Film at 11.

I agree that JO should be the focus of the discontent...as should be any CEO that uses his methods. At the same time, the Freedom pilots were JO's tool to accomplish his goal....without them, his plan never would have worked.

I don't disrespect or have bad feelings towards Mesa pilots...they got screwed. Maybe they could have said no to the contract but, dealing with JO and Freedom, those would have been some pretty uncharted waters. Sometimes it's better to fight from in the seat than from on the street...sometimes not. Anyhow...the timing of the Mesa vote was awful and things were looking pretty bleak in the industry...worse than now, I think.

I couldn't disagree more that we should forget those who scab or bring down the industry. We should never forget who they are and what they did. If one thing that would keep a potential scab from crossing the line is the fact that we never forget....then we should never forget.

Here's a telling statement: "As a business major in college, I hated unions. I swore I'd never join one." I felt the same way coming into the industry during the 85 Continental strike. Figured it would be a pretty good deal to be an instant 727 F/O and make 50K a year...Lorenzo was actually advertising for pilots in the paper. Thank Gawd I wasn't qualified....

Once you're in the industry for a while...you understand why unions and sticking together are so important. It's our only effective way to battle the JO's of the world and make this a decent career.

Aloft...how's the instrument rating coming?
 

Derg

New Arizona, Il Duce/Warlord
Staff member
Re: Pot Calls Kettle Black...Film at 11.

I remember all of my anti-union propaganda that I was being fed in school while Eastern was on strike and thinking 'Those dummies, can't they realize that $50,000 is a lot of money! That's more than my dad makes! They're STUPID!"

Then I got my first CFI job in aviation. I figured things would improve when I got to an airline. Then I got hired by a non-union (at the time) airline and realized that besides multi-engine turbine time, I actually (benefits-wise) had it made as a CFI, apart from medical bennies

Corporate America is winning the fight against organized labor for a multitude of reasons and if we don't fight back as an industry, we're literally all screwed.

Hear me now and believe me later, an unchecked corporate america WILL NOT stop until we're living in shanties within shouting distance of crew scheduling in tents on airport property.
 
Top