For Lloyd..and those who think there is to much 'negativity'

Seggy

Well-Known Member
This is for Lloyd and those who think there is to much 'negativity' out there. Not sure if Lloyd is even going to read this because I might be on his ignore list.

This is also out there to guys who are thinking about getting into the industry but might be concerned about what is going on.

Anywho, some think there has been a lot of talk about 'negativity' in the airline industry. Some think that there is to much kumbuyyaa out there. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

Being a professional airline pilot was a dream of mine ever since I can remember. Growing up, I loved going to the airport, getting on a commercial airline flying somewhere new, looking out the window, and everything associated with that. Flying was my passion my whole life. I got a lot of ribbings from numerous people saying, mostly joking, 'you can't be serious' and a variety of other comments about me wanting to fulfill my dream. Thanks to the invaluable community here on jetcareers I was educated on the best way to pursue my career for myself. If negatives about the process where not brought out, such as places like TABExpress, Gulfstream Aviation Academy, and other NEGATIVE aspects of flight training, I might have made a mistake and ended up going to a scumbag place like that. But thanks to the education here on Jetcareers, I avoided those places and put myself in a great training situation.

I have been involved in aviation for four and a half years. I can honestly say I love it. I feel very fortunate to be able to wake up in the morning, go to work, and enjoy and work in my passion. There are some awesome people in this industry, some great experiences, and some opportunities I never thought I would go through. I can not imagine myself doing something else at this time in my life.

With that said, there are parts of this industry and job that for lack of a better word SUCK. It sucks hearing about your friends losing their jobs, paycuts, A.I.D.S. (Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome), FAA issues, company issues, etc. News for all of us. No matter what industry we are in, it has its issues.

The success of Jetcareers is based on education. If we live in a glass house, then we are doing all of us a disservice. A dose of reality in this, or any industry, is so important. It is what it is. But to say there is to much negativity out there is going overboard. If anyone says there is to much kumbuyyaa out there is going overboard. It is in the middle.

If someone says they don't want to be a pilot based on what they read on here or any other internet message board, then I question if this career would be best for them anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I hate negativity. I look at things like the glass is half full. However, I also like to live in reality. And the reality of the situation is aviation is awesome at times and at times it sucks.

My .02 cents
 

Nick

Well-Known Member
Thorns and Roses

It is the case with almost everyone to love some aspects of the job and hate others.

+ I like flying. I like the travel. I like the streaks of days off that are longer than most 9-5 jobs offer. I like non-revving to some foreign country and staying at some hostel for a few days seeing the city with American friends of mine who have come along or whoever happens to be staying at the place.

- I am tired of being paid the same (or less) as the people who pretend to check my luggage for dangerous things, or the people who bring the sodas onto the $20,000,000 jet I fly.

Anyone who doesn't recognize the good stuff is lame and they are probably the ones who are not a lot of fun to work with.

Anyone who doesn't recognize and try to correct the bad stuff are selling themselves and everyone else way short because pilots are worth more than what many of them put up with.

Anyone who can't handle reading posts on the internet should not click them to begin with.
 

PaulRix

Well-Known Member
Re: For Lloyd..and those who think there is to much 'negativ

Good post Seggy. I am one of the lucky ones in that I love my job. With any line of work though there are good and bad aspects. I think it would be wrong to try and put anyone off from pursuing a career as a pilot just because the airline industry is having problems. There are other areas where you can earn your living as a pilot. The airlines are not the be all and end all.

With my job (Pt 135 charter flying King Air's and as a SIC on the Citation 500/550) the good points are that I get to fly some well equipped, well maintained aircraft with a great, close knit group of people, flying into a wide variety of airports and I get to sleep in my own bed almost every night (which goes a long way to eliminating the A.I.D.S problem described above).

The negatives would be that I am on call a lot (I get one 'hard' day off a week though plus a 'soft' day off where they can call me but I have the option to decline a trip). My salary is, I think very fair but I know the larger companies (and the airlines) would pay more after being with them for a while. I see that as a small price to pay for what is (for me) a better QOL. For me, being away 8 days at a stretch on a regular basis would get very old very quickly.

As I said though, I know I have been very fortunate. Right place, right time, right company etc etc.
 

Minuteman

“Dongola”
Re: For Lloyd..and those who think there is to much 'negativ

Until then, I hope you never come to the airlines. We don't need someone with your mentality here.
There are ways to exert immense peer pressure without it ever taking place on the flight deck.
The main lesson I take away from stuff like this is that there are people interested in making the job all about fighting and trying to polarize everyone within reach.
 

BajtheJino

I'm looking at you.
Re: For Lloyd..and those who think there is to much 'negativ

I don't speak for Lloyd obviously, but what I took away from his post is that there are too many 900 hr wonders on here bashing the airline industry, telling people to never get in but then they turn around and do the exact opposite of their advice.
Good for you for liking your job and going to work everyday but if this initial post was a rebuttal...I missed it.
Besides, I thought a lot of you Colganites were some of the ones B&M'ing about the state of aviation and just had to have a union?
 

MikeFavinger

Hubschrauber Flieger
Re: For Lloyd..and those who think there is to much 'negativ

There really isn't a lot of people saying not to get in the industry on this forum. There really isn't.

The pro-union guys aren't doing it and the anti-union guys aren't doing it. There are a very select few who are very critical of the aviation profession. In fact, I can think of only two regulars off the top of my head.

There are plenty who openly discuss the hardships and challenges of the industry, but that's a completely different thing. It doesn't mean they dislike their jobs and it doesn't mean they don't recommend the industry to others.
 

Boris Badenov

Just running in to a burning house...
Re: For Lloyd..and those who think there is to much 'negativ

If I sound like I don't recommend the industry to younguns, it's cause I don't. But not because the job(s) suck. Some probably do. The five I've had don't (or didn't). Even the CFI jobs. My concern for guys coming in to it now is that it looks like a pretty bleak immediate future, even for guys with "lots" of time (a relative proposition, always). Some will say "there's always an upswing". I'm sure that's true, but it sure seems like the upswings have been shorter and the downswings longer and deeper through the last couple of cycles. Add to that the spectre of ab initio training and multi-crew licenses, and I fear that the Good Job you were never assured will become an outright myth by the time people under, say, 30 get there. It's entirely possible that I'm wrong about this, and I argue it only out of sincere belief. I'm happy to argue with those who have a rosier view, and I'd love to be convinced. Till then I'm mostly a gloomNdoomer, but not out of a bitter-old-guy-who-wishes-he'd-been-a-brain-surgeon fit of pique, just because I do not see the perks of being a professional pilot going anywhere but down.

I do always at least try to take the opposing view with good humor. I think that goes a long way towards avoiding a "war" such as some seem to think we have. If y'all are right and I wind up pulling down six figures for 15 days of flying to exotic foreign locales, sleeping in four star hotels, and enjoying the company of great crews, then I will gladly pay up in libation when we meet at the gold-gilded pilot bar!
 

tonyw

Well-Known Member
Re: For Lloyd..and those who think there is to much 'negativ

If someone says they don't want to be a pilot based on what they read on here or any other internet message board, then I question if this career would be best for them anyway.
Well, I'm one of those people.

But it's far better for me to be on the outside looking in rather than a miserable SOB on the inside wondering why the bleep he blew $50K for the job he has.

I'll be honest. My goal when it comes to work is to do the least amount of work for the most amount of money. If someone would pay me $100K to sit around and scratch my ass all day long, I'd take that job in a heartbeat.

I was attracted to aviation because I enjoyed flying. I also saw that the maximum number of hours a pilot could work is 1,000 versus the 2,000 a normal worker puts in over the course of a year. Twice the time off to do things I wanted to do was what attracted me to the field.

But then I found out about the BS that pilots have to put up with, and I found out that the payscale was at a level where it would take five years and an upgrade just to get back to where I am now, assuming that I got no raises at my current position.

And I decided the hell with it.

So yes, the education I received from this website made me decide the career wasn't for me.

And that's good. It's better to have me not flying an airplane being a bitter, angry mofo who hates showing up to work and who only goes through the motions.

To those of you who enjoy it, great. But the reality of the career has to be shown to people who are considering it. If you paint a rosy picture, you're going to end up with a bunch of bitter mofos working with you.

I know there are some who will eat all the crap management shovels and smile and say thank you sir, may I please have another. Hey, they figure, I could be a guy caught between a civil war in the Sudan, worrying about getting my arms hacked off.

Well, I don't think like that. And I admire the folks like Seggy and Cruise and PCL who are fighting to make things better instead of saying, ah, well, it could be worse.

Of course it could be worse. But it sure as hell SHOULD be better.
 

Old Pete

Cockpit Authoritarian
Re: For Lloyd..and those who think there is to much 'negativ

While some of you point out legitimate drawbacks and negatives in the industry, others of you remind me of an ex-girlfriend of mine. I finally said to her "I think I understand you now. You're just not happy unless you're miserable"
 

Sprint100

Well-Known Member
Re: For Lloyd..and those who think there is to much 'negativ

Great post Segs!!! I just wish some of the guys trying to get into a career as a pilot were just more honest with themselves in regards to the situation they are getting themselves into. Not to diss MTSU, but I can see where he comes from. He is a straight up you knew the job was dangerous before you took it type of guy, so I can see him looking at posts as being negative.
 

DE727UPS

Well-Known Member
Re: For Lloyd..and those who think there is to much 'negativ

I think JC does a great job of showing the good and the bad of the industry. Newbs need to see that. So much so, that I often refer newbs to this site from APC. Big academy websites should have a link here if they really care about honestly informing people about the decision to jump into this career.

I've also refered APC's most profound anti to this site but he doesn't want to play. You guys are mean and can't carry on a decent argument....

Personally, I have a hard time dissing the career. I think we should all be honest from our own perspectives. And if you look at my perspective, where would I get off bashing the career? In fact, in my personal situation, I can say I'd rather be a pilot for 50K a year working half the month, than doing just about anything else I can think of. But that's just me. To each his own....

If people want to rant about how much the job sucks, that's their biz. It's more productive if they do that whilst giving a viable alternative and speaking about how to reach that goal. But, to each his own....
 

Seggy

Well-Known Member
Re: For Lloyd..and those who think there is to much 'negativ

Besides, I thought a lot of you Colganites were some of the ones B&M'ing about the state of aviation and just had to have a union?
If you think that than you have missed a lot.

I really like my company. It has its issues like anything else, but up to this point it has been really a great experience. We need a union for far more reasons that extend well beyond typical B&Ming.


Well, I'm one of those people.
Let me clarify and say that when I said that I directed it to more of the guys who take a few lessons, then read up on the boards a few negative comments and then decide to take another route. Guys like you tony contribute a lot on here and have consistently stuck around and contributed your knowledge helping others.

I would also like to point out Killbilly who said something to me a few weeks ago that really hit me hard and made me think.

He said, "At times I envy and am jealous of you and at times I feel incredibly sorry for you."

Bill is getting his ratings, keeping his options open to different avenues that might come up down the road. He has a great job and will have no problems down the road if he jumps into aviation full time. I hate putting words and thoughts in his mouth, but from what I gather he is using jetcareers to educate himself about the different avenues he can take down the road and to help him make a choice on how he pursues his aviation career.


I just wish some of the guys trying to get into a career as a pilot were just more honest with themselves in regards to the situation they are getting themselves into.
:yeahthat: Well said Ed.
 

Qgar

New Member
Re: For Lloyd..and those who think there is to much 'negativ

There's a saying I heard years ago, "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem." :) Alot of truth in that statement, if you ask me!
Thanks to Seggy and the others at Colgan for working their asses off trying to be part of the solution. I see it everytime I'm in the crewroom with them. :rawk:
No career or employer is perfect, but sitting around B&M'ing about it, does nothing. Thank God for the take-charge people who give their time and effort to make things better. ;)
 

Airdale

Well-Known Member
Re: For Lloyd..and those who think there is to much 'negativ

Nice post Mark, you hit it correctly. And you are defintely one of those "glass half full" guys, but like you said, sometimes its not always fresh roses and hot Flight Attendants. :D
 

tonyw

Well-Known Member
Re: For Lloyd..and those who think there is to much 'negativ

He said, "At times I envy and am jealous of you and at times I feel incredibly sorry for you."
You know, that's exactly how I feel. Sometimes I do envy you guys, and then sometimes I feel very sorry for you.

You guys have a hell of a lot of responsibility and you do your jobs well.

But they treat you like crap and they always come to you and say, uh, yeah, that contract we signed? We're going to have to rip it up and cut your pay.
 

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Re: For Lloyd..and those who think there is to much 'negativ

I would also like to point out Killbilly who said something to me a few weeks ago that really hit me hard and made me think.

He said, "At times I envy and am jealous of you and at times I feel incredibly sorry for you."

Bill is getting his ratings, keeping his options open to different avenues that might come up down the road. He has a great job and will have no problems down the road if he jumps into aviation full time. I hate putting words and thoughts in his mouth, but from what I gather he is using jetcareers to educate himself about the different avenues he can take down the road and to help him make a choice on how he pursues his aviation career.
You know, that's exactly how I feel. Sometimes I do envy you guys, and then sometimes I feel very sorry for you.

But they treat you like crap and they always come to you and say, uh, yeah, that contract we signed? We're going to have to rip it up and cut your pay.
Did I say that? Was I sober when I said it? :)

It is true, though. I do feel that way from time to time.

Right after my divorce I was in a mildly...not psychotic...but strange frame of mind, and I was hell-bent on going to ATP and becoming an RJ driver. I even went over to the GKY location, and had a sit-down with Kris Swan over there and asked lots of questions. ATP, in turn hooked me up with their pilot forums and Captain Bob - it was there I met Jeremy (Loadmaster141) and found my way to JC. I was in a holding pattern with selling my house, so I couldn't do anything until that happened. It took almost two years, so in the mean time I was able to research. And along the way I met a nice girl and got some perspective on my life and realized that being a 121 pilot wasn't necessarily going to make me happy.

Guys like Tony and I, in my opinion, have it a little easier than a lot of the younger pilots out there - indeed, I think it's the case for most career changers. We've got some mileage and scar tisssue in other career fields, as well as some life experiences under our belts that a lot of the kids (I mean no disrespect when I use that term) don't. For Bob and Jeremy, it made sense and that's what was right for them. Over the last couple of years, Jeremy and I have compared notes about what we were doing. He has gone full bore and his wife is behind him and it's going to work out. For me, I decided it wouldn't.

I believe that the watchword when considering any career change is "Know Thyself." Know what you really want and can handle. I've done my share of crap-shoveling jobs, and I presently find myself in a job that pays well, that I'm good at, that makes me relatively happy - mostly because it allows me to do things I love, which is flying small airplanes around.

If I had gotten into flying at a younger age, it might have been different. I think, if life had been different, I would have gone the route Alex - (CitationKid) did.

I don't think any job is worth your dignity. I've worked jobs where I was underpaid for the responsibility, and it's an awful feeling - it affects your mental health, which affects your physical health.

Just wasn't the right call for me. I admire the guys who do it and do it well with a good attitude - but I'm not sure that I could be that guy. Above all, I want to end my day knowing that I did something worthwhile with my time that would reward me with time/money to do something fun. Knowing myself, I chose my path accordingly. So let me leave you with a potentially trite, but compelling anecdote nonetheless....

In the movie "The Kingdom", the politically-minded d-bag of an Attorney General is chastising the Director of the FBI - a combat veteran and reasonable-minded man with a deep sense of honor. And this is what the FBI director said...I lifted this from the script, although it's slightly different in the movie delivery...which I edited to match.

Westmoreland made all us Officers write our own obituaries during
Tet, when it looked like the Cong were going to end it all right there. Once we clued-in that life was finite, the loss of it no longer scared us: the end comes no matter what, it's just a question of how you want to go out: on your feet or on your knees. The lesson extends to this career: I ACT, knowing the end of this job will come, no matter what. You should do the same.


I found that to be rather compelling and not at all fatalistic. And in processing that, I realized that in deciding not to be an airline pilot, I was not necessarily selling out my dreams - this had bothered me for a while. But what I did do was prioritize and determined that what I needed the airline industry could not give me. So I have no regrets about the fact that I will likely never fly a large jet. I'm really cool with that. At peace with it. Now it's down to small bites - get the IR. Enjoy it. Have fun. Get the CPL. Enjoy it, have fun. Maybe buy myself a multi-rating for Christmas or even a plane someday.

If I lose this job - and it can happen - I'll re-evaluate things and figure it out. As long as I'm happy - rather, making myself happy with what I'm doing, it really doesn't matter. Make sense?
 

surreal1221

Well-Known Member
Re: For Lloyd..and those who think there is to much 'negativ

Clearly a great post Mark.

Job well done.

Nevertheless, the anti- side of this opinion piece will forever consider you a disgruntled pilot who hates to fly for a living, and your only ambition for coming to work is to organize your pilot group so you can some how manage to get rich one day.

Clearly you hate your life, and wish you could have done something else with it.

Or so they would say.

I'll even come scratch your back hair and even pour a drink for you while I do it.
 

E_Dawg

Moderator
Re: For Lloyd..and those who think there is to much 'negativ

Yeah good post Segs, thanks.

I always figure if what you 'want' doesn't stand up to the criticism, don't do it.

But, you gots to be educated about it first!
 
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