FOI endorsement confusion

J

JordanD

Here so I don’t get fined
My CFI and I aren't really thinking along the same lines with regards to the FOI endorsement in 61.183 in order to take the CFI practical, and to be honest I'm a little unclear on it myself. As far as I understand it and as it was explained to me, there is no endorsement needed to take the FOI written. However to take the practical you need a logbook signoff saying that you've covered the FOI material with a CFI. My CFI doesn't really agree and says "Well, you already took the practical, what do you need a signoff for?" Now he thinks that I'm referring to signing the bottom of the test report saying we covered the questions I missed on the written. (Bonus question! That's only needed if you fail, right? If you got say a 78% does a CFI even need to sign that?). I was going to show him the reg but I didn't have time, and to be honest I find the reg in 61.183 a little confusing because it almost does make it seem like you need the logbook signoff to take the FOI written.

What is the best way to clear this up with my CFI? Obviously we are interpreting the requirements differently, but obviously I am not going to the FSDO without the logbook endorsement.
 
JordanD said:
My CFI and I aren't really thinking along the same lines with regards to the FOI endorsement in 61.183 in order to take the CFI practical, and to be honest I'm a little unclear on it myself. As far as I understand it and as it was explained to me, there is no endorsement needed to take the FOI written. However to take the practical you need a logbook signoff saying that you've covered the FOI material with a CFI. My CFI doesn't really agree and says "Well, you already took the practical, what do you need a signoff for?" Now he thinks that I'm referring to signing the bottom of the test report saying we covered the questions I missed on the written. (Bonus question! That's only needed if you fail, right? If you got say a 78% does a CFI even need to sign that?). I was going to show him the reg but I didn't have time, and to be honest I find the reg in 61.183 a little confusing because it almost does make it seem like you need the logbook signoff to take the FOI written.

What is the best way to clear this up with my CFI? Obviously we are interpreting the requirements differently, but obviously I am not going to the FSDO without the logbook endorsement.
Click to expand...

You do need an endorsement, that you have received the required fundamentals of instruction training of section 61.185(a)(1). That's all it needs to state, that you received the required ground instruction, and it is only required if you aren't a teacher and it is your first CFI certificate.
 
You are right, he is wrong. 14 CFR 61.185(a).

You need no endorsement for the written, but you need it for the practical.

AC61-65E, Page 12, item 43.

I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required fundamentals of instruction
training of section 61.185(a)(1).
/s/ [date] J. J. Jones 987654321CFI Exp. 12-31-05
 
JordanD said:
I was going to show him the reg but I didn't have time, and to be honest I find the reg in 61.183 a little confusing because it almost does make it seem like you need the logbook signoff to take the FOI written.
Click to expand...

61.183 covers the prerequisites for a flight instructor certificate, including the endorsements you may/do need from 61.185 and 61.187.

The endorsement required by 61.183 is the one it requires for stalls & spins.

It certainly could be a bit clearer...
 
rframe said:
You are right, he is wrong. 14 CFR 61.185(a).

You need no endorsement for the written, but you need it for the practical.

AC61-65E, Page 12, item 43.

I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required fundamentals of instruction
training of section 61.185(a)(1).
/s/ [date] J. J. Jones 987654321CFI Exp. 12-31-05
Click to expand...

This exact question was covered in the FIRC I just completed.

You don't need an endorsement to take the CFI written. You DO need one for the FOI written. You also need endorsements for the practical test.
 
Mike H said:
This exact question was covered in the FIRC I just completed.

You don't need an endorsement to take the CFI written. You DO need one for the FOI written. You also need endorsements for the practical test.
Click to expand...

I'm actually reversing my position on this... I now believe an endorsement is required for ALL flight instructor writtens. Why? Because I just read it in FAA Order 8080.6D "Conduct of Airman Knowledge Tests".

7-7. REQUIREMENTS FOR PILOT AND INSTRUCTOR APPLICANTS. Satisfactory completion of ground instruction or a home-study course, appropriate to the certificate or rating sought, is required of an applicant for a pilot or instructor knowledge test. Any one of the following options may be presented as evidence of meeting this requirement.
a. A certificate of graduation from a pilot training course conducted by an FAA certificated pilot school, or a statement of accomplishment from the school certifying satisfactory completion of the ground school portion of the course.
b. A certificate of graduation or statement of accomplishment from a ground school course conducted by an agency such as a high school, college, adult education program, U.S. Armed Forces, Civil Air Patrol, or ROTC Flight Training Program
c. A certificate of graduation from an aviation correspondence course, with an authorized FAA instructor endorsement, certifying that the applicant possesses the required knowledge for that specific certificate or rating.
d. A written statement or logbook entry made by an authorized FAA flight or ground instructor certifying that the applicant has satisfactorily completed the ground instruction required for the certificate or rating sought.
e. An endorsement from an authorized instructor certifying that the applicant accomplished a ground-training or a home-study course required by 14 CFR section 61.105 for the certificate or rating sought and is prepared for the knowledge test.
 
So what happens in the case of someone whose CFI didn't endorse tem for the written, the testing center didn't ask to see an endorsement, and they've already taken and passed it?
Found this on the CATS website again saying no endorsement is needed.
http://www.catstest.com/html/applicants/faa/flight_instructor.html

And then I looked in my logbook and te endorsement written out references 61.185a and 61.35a, so now I'm still really confused...
 
JordanD said:
So what happens in the case of someone whose CFI didn't endorse tem for the written, the testing center didn't ask to see an endorsement, and they've already taken and passed it?
Click to expand...

Nothing. The only purpose the endorsement serves is to allow you to take the knowledge test (if required). That authorization does not even need to be in a logbook - it could be faxed to the testing center.

The instructor certificates are "different" in many ways. There isn't any required flight time for any of them, for example.
 
Well what if the written was taken, and then the FOI endorsement was dated after the written was taken, since the CFI just said to go take the written?
 
You definitely want the FOI endorsement for the practical. I made sure I had mine and my inspector made sure to check for it.

They never asked for any endorsements when I took any of my instructor writtens, and it's common belief they are not required, though the FAA Order I posted above seems pretty clear that they are supposed to be required for the written too.
 
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