Flutter

ElyJs

New Member
I was talking an old CFI-G the other day and he told me the Vne is not simply a redline that you keep you IAS under. He let me know that you could exceed the Vne for your airplane while in the yellow because your TAS would be above. So I started to do some research. Most simply put IAS is a function of how many molecules are being packed into the pitot tube, but does not measure the actual velocity of these molecules. At 30,000 feet there may not be as many molecules so your IAS is lower but those molecules are still moving really fast. These molecules can cause uncontrollable vibrations that will rip an airplane apart before the pilot can recover. For those that fly airlines or other high flying machines is flutter a factor. How about an f-16? Unflutterable? Why does your barber poll that represents Vne move with altitude?

-Jason
 
Everything that you said about Indicated versus True Airspeed is correct. However, generally the Vne that is given in the POH, or Owner's Manual, or Dash 1 (military jets) will be given in INDICATED AIRSPEED, because the companies that build the aircraft know that this is what the pilot has easiest access too in flight.

Actually, indicated airspeed (or more accurately CALIBRATED airspeed which is just Indicated +/- installation error) is useful for expressing airspeed limits on airplanes, because indicated airspeed sort of expresses the amount of force caused by the velocity of the air.

Let me see if I can explain why: You are correct that indicated airspeed measures the force of the air molecules moving into the pitot tube, so the more molecules there are, the more force there is. Or the faster those molecules are moving, the more force there is. If you were looking at TRUE airspeed, then you would be looking at the speed of the molecules across the wing, but the forces generated by those molecules at a given TRUE airspeed would depend on the number of molecules. Or in other words, the forces would depend on the density of the air, in addition to the true airspeed. But that's basically what the indicated (calibrated, really) is all about.

Now some aircraft also have some maximum airspeeds that depend on Mach effects as well as the actual forces on the surface of the airplane. In those airplanes, generally the barber pole at sea level will be at the maximum indicated airspeed, but as the altitude increases the barber pole will move down to show the maximum Mach number limit. I have know idea what the exact gizmo is that does this, but the idea is that it should display the correct limiting airspeed even if the mach number is what is causing the limit.

The other way that it can be displayed is with seperate airspeed indicators and mach indicators, where you'd have a limit for each, such as "316 IAS, or .67 Mach, whichever occurs first". Incidently, this is the T-6 limit. (Although, the T-6 uses an airspeed indicator where the barber pole moves automatically at higher altitudes, rather than a separate mach meter).

Anyways, like always, read the POH for YOUR airplane, and see what it says. Where it lists the Vne it should also tell you if that is indicated, calibrated, equivalent or true. If all that it mentions is an indicated limit, and doesn't mention any notes or warnings about altitude corrections, or temperature corrections, or a seperate mach limitation or whatever, then that's really all you should need to worry about. The manufacturer should have done all of the thinking about true vs. indicated vs. mach vs. equivalent vs. calibrated for you.
 
"Flutter" was the reason for the limiting airspeed (275 KIAS) in the T-37. Below that speed, flutter wasn't an issue, but above it was a possibility. I don't know if flutter would of ripped the airplane apart, but the dash 1 said that the nose would exhibit a tendency to "hunt" back and forth above 275 that would progressively worsen as airspeed increased, but it also said that the "hunting tendency" wouldn't cause damage. The dash 1 also listed a limiting structural airspeed of 385 KIAS or .7 Mach, which always seemed silly to me, since you weren't allowed to exceed 275. I think that maybe the reason that they put that speed in was to prevent pilots from writing up an aircraft overspeed until they got to the 385 limit.
 
Or maybe because by giving a limiting airspeed of 285 IAS you would have to be at an extremely high altitude to get to a TAS that would allow the possibility of flutter. Thanks for your quick response.

I live in Colorado so I am used to seeing lower IAS, you think I am alright barreling down from a 15,000' pass at redline IAS in a cessna, diamond star etc (w/ smooth air)? Do I really need to worry about this "flutter"?

The big danger I have been reading about this flutter has more to do with a gliders or aircraft operating at 40,000+. For the glider example you could be operating at an IAS well under 100 knots but a TAS well over Vne. With those long wings flutter is an issue and apparently there is not much warning such as in the t-37. Once it begin the oscillations get large so quickly that apparently it is not usually described as flutter more of just a explosive failure.

(There are a view gliders that operate out of Boulder that have been 50,000 ft +. Night IFR certified storm hunters. You should see all the patches from lightening strikes! I have heard stories of this particular glider popping out of a thunderstorm at extreme altitude with inches of ice all over. Not for me, but watch that flutter!)

The moving Vne barber poll any other ideas?

Thanks

-Jason
 
I was talking an old CFI-G the other day and he told me the Vne is not simply a redline that you keep you IAS under. He let me know that you could exceed the Vne for your airplane while in the yellow because your TAS would be above.

Possibly, but the aircraft has been tested for flutter up to Vd (maximum dive speed), and Vne is set a bit below that. And Part 23 regs require that analysis shows that no flutter will occur up to 1.2Vd. Seems that there's quite a bit of margin to play with, as long as control surfaces are balanced correctly.

BTW, air density plays a role in flutter suppression, which is why the tendency rises with altitude. While the forward velocity compensates for air density in the horizontal dimension, for things that flap up and down the air is still thin.

How about an f-16?

I think flutter is not much of a problem with aircraft that have irreversible control systems (e.g, hydraulic). Plus, low aspect ratio wings are very stiff, which reduces the likelihood of flutter.

Why does your barber poll that represents Vne move with altitude?

Vmo/Mmo, rather than Vne, isn't it? Probably flutter for aircraft with reversible flight control systems and mach effects for those without.
 
The barber pole changes with altitude because the speed of sound is temperature dependent. In airplanes with an air data computer, it should be tied in with the temperature gage.

In less sophisticated airplanes, it is sometimes just driven by the static system and calibrated for a standard lapse rate.
 
I was talking an old CFI-G the other day and he told me the Vne is not simply a redline that you keep you IAS under. He let me know that you could exceed the Vne for your airplane while in the yellow because your TAS would be above.
-Jason

The airspeed indicator is really misnamed...it should really be called an air pressure gage. It really has nothing to do with the actual speed of the airplane (except at sea level on a standard day). It measures the dynamic pressure felt on the airframe. An indicated airspeed of 200 kts at seal level has the same dynamic pressure as 200 kts indicated at 30,000'. The pressures on the airframe will be the same...even though your actual speed through the air will be different.



The stresses on your airplane are indicated by the pressure gage....I mean, the airspeed indicator. Don't pay any attention to TAS in regards in regards to Vne, Vfe, etc.

Also, the aircraft designers will ensure that flutter affects are sufficiently damped within the placarded dynamic pressure, I mean...indicated airspeed.

I believe the designers must ensure the CG of the appendage (aileron, etc) is forward of the hinge line. In some older airplanes you will see certain weights attached to the forward portion of the ailerons.

The IAS indicator is a pressure gage by which all aerodynamic forces on the airplane rely upon. It is a very poor indicator of actual speed.

Use TAS for time,fuel and distance computations...not aerodynamic ones. The TAS is a very good measure of your speed.
 
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