c172captain
Well-Known Member
Do figthers use bleed heat from the engines like other jets or do they utilize other de-ice equipment?
Fighters flying in icing conditions
- Thread starter c172captain
- Start date
The Gardener
Terrafirma Phobic
I'll piggy back onto that one. What are the weather limitations of a fighter?
Depends in the plane. Fighters don't generally have heated wing or boots. But even worse than that, are two things that are susceptible to icing: turbine blades and the seeker heads of missiles. The T-38 was, as I remember, if there was forecast trace icing, it was a no go; due to the 8th or 9th stage compressor blades being razor thin. F-16s are very susceptible to ice FOD of their single engine. But, the weak spot is the missile ordnance. One of the A-10s in my squadron came back from an icing encounter with both AGM-65 Maverick missile seeker heads shattered from the build up. Not good. In the F-117 I flew, the grating covering the intakes....commonly known as the "ice cube tray" did just that in icing, it formed cubes within the grating. Funny thing there was that we used a wiper (like a car windshield wiper) that would work back and forth across the grating, clearing the ice from the inlet grate....interesting design. Generally, pitot heat is the only anti-ice there is, and in the 117 especially, if the 4 air data tubes on the nose iced up due to a failure of the heat, the plane turned into a tumbling brick. Never seen deice on any fighter I've been around. Theres just no reason to be flying around in icing conditions for those planes.
aloft
New Member
A viper driver buddy of mine's wingman had an air data probe ice over while climbing through a thick overcast on a Noble Eagle sortie over the SF Bay area awhile back. The flight popped out of the overcast at around FL180, my buddy looked over his shoulder to check on his wingman, then about 15 seconds later, said wingman is screaming over the radio that his aircraft had departed controlled flight and he was in IMC in a deep-stall free-fall. My buddy called up Bay Approach and told em to keep everybody out from underneath them, then talked his wingman through the recovery procedure. But because the probe had iced over, the flight control system's computer wasn't responding appropriately to control inputs from the pilot. They went through all the options, idle thrust, max AB, before he was finally able to recover the jet. He finally leveled off at something like 3500 feet over downtown Berkeley, still in IMC. My buddy was named "aircrew of distinction" in the ACC safety mag for his role in the incident.
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
I am somewhat amazed at how short sighted the military is at times when it comes to preparing aircraft to operate in the real world. Everything in aviation is a compromise and some things may not be doable... but then you can be really stupid. A couple of Army examples.
AH-64. Initial fly-away cost per unit for this "all weather attack helicopter" was almost $14 million. Yet during the Balkans War the AH-64s in Germany could not self deploy. Why? The aircraft was not equipped to fly in IMC. So much for the "all weather attack helicopter".
The MH-47D with the integrated/glass cockpit. They did not put in a standby "peanut" gauge and put the tubes on both sides on the same bus. Guess what happened when water leaked onto the bus during IMC and shorted out the entire system? Lost an entire crew and for some time the aircraft could not even fly in marginal VMC.
AH-64. Initial fly-away cost per unit for this "all weather attack helicopter" was almost $14 million. Yet during the Balkans War the AH-64s in Germany could not self deploy. Why? The aircraft was not equipped to fly in IMC. So much for the "all weather attack helicopter".
The MH-47D with the integrated/glass cockpit. They did not put in a standby "peanut" gauge and put the tubes on both sides on the same bus. Guess what happened when water leaked onto the bus during IMC and shorted out the entire system? Lost an entire crew and for some time the aircraft could not even fly in marginal VMC.
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
Yes, priorities are important... but it is silly for a multimillion dollar airframe to not be able to even get to the fight because it lacks a $1000 VOR. It's not like the Army did not have any experience in Germany and did not know the airframe would encounter IMC on a regular basis. Icing for a combat jet... probably not as high on the need list, but it is something I would want available in some aircraft.
ian
Well-Known Member
We have very little anti-ice/de-ice equipment on the C-5
Well, chances are if that fighter jet was off to battle in Europe, them TACANS were probably wiped out by an EMP during a tactical nuke strike as the Soviets were storming through the Fulda gap.
Kind of like when you get a former SAC Stratobladder commander drunk and press him on his true mission, "lawn darting" and "standpipe fuel".
Kind of like when you get a former SAC Stratobladder commander drunk and press him on his true mission, "lawn darting" and "standpipe fuel".
c172captain
Well-Known Member
If you fighters don't have any de-ice equipment, how would you handle a situation where you need to climb/fly through a layer where you'd be known to have icing conditions? Obviously most scenarious would be avoided but what if there is a layer at 16,000ft that you need to climb through and it's 5,000ft thick? Just balls to the wall and climb through it as fast as possible?
It seems strange that in some cases (norther latitudes in winter) that a fighter would be limited to VFR only.
It seems strange that in some cases (norther latitudes in winter) that a fighter would be limited to VFR only.
///AMG
Well-Known Member
You climb fast and stay at low AoA (at least a Hornet consideration so we don't shed ice build up off the bottom of the LEX's and into the intakes).
Re: blackhawk.....as JB might have told you, we are TACAN only, so it's that, a PAR, or a "Hornet-1" approach (self contained radar app)
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
AH-64 could not even do that. Was not certified to fly into IMC. No TACAN, no nothin'. Granted, it was not anticipated that when the hords came through Fulda they would need any of that, but the Balkan's War was well after the fall of the Berlin Wall when it was obvious that the forces needed to be a little more nimble. After all, it could not even get to the fight.
USMCmech
Well-Known Member
I'm sure that performance and weapons should be the main factors, but you still need to consider the "other enemy" that is the weather.
Having the air force grounded due to bad weather has nearly resulted in military disaster on several occasions, (Battle of the Bulge, the retreat from the Chosin Resivior, ect.)
The AH-64 was equipped to scud run "VFR" with all it's sensors, and therefore does not need IFR equipment.
Or so went the logic of the Army. Clearly they did not think that all the way through.
Hacker15e
Who am I? Where are my pants?
So what happens if you encounter an enemy fighter in icing conditions?
Chances are they won't be flying, either.
But, fact of the matter is, "rules" go out the window when the risk level goes up. If it's important enough, we'll fly and fight in whatever weather conditions exist.
ian
Well-Known Member
thats what waivers are for