Feds Might Ease Post-9/11 Airport Rule

Cruise

Cruise

Well-Known Member
Interesting article from the AP

Airport Security




Now, if we could only figure out how to rid ourselves of the TSA altogether.

This organization (I use the term loosely) is filled with barely-educated, know-nothing personel who finally have some power over the general population. It's amazing to watch these people assert their authority over passengers at airports.

Now I realize, NOT EVERYONE IN THE TSA FALLS INTO THIS GENERALIZATION......however, I truely believe MOST DO!

It's is absurd that passengers are having cutical scissors, fingernail clippers, etc.... being taken away while passing through security.....(another term used loosely).

What's next? Here are a few examples I've come up with:

No more seatbelts on airlines.......after all, the prospective "terrorist" could gnaw through the belt during the flight and use the remnant to choke a flight attendant

OR

Perhaps we should eliminate pens and pencils from being allowed on-board.......these "dangerous" devices could be used to stab a person in the neck/ heart. After all, a person would probably be just as dead from that stab wound as a knife.

Anyone who has had military combat arms training knows about the use of "weapons of opportunity." Basically, this is anything an attacker can use against his enemy.

For example:

No more bullets for your gun.......then use your bayonet.
Dropped your bayonet.......use your entrenching tool.....(they work great...
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)
Can't find any manmade weapon.......grab a ROCK.

My point is this......we need to be sensible about our "Security".......and this shouldn't include people who deserve to be handing you food-in-a-bag out of a window! Regardless of where you turn, there is a "weapon" that could potentially be used against another person.

I have the answer:

[over the aircraft PA system]

Welcome aboard from the flight deck. This is your captain speaking. The cabin crew will be coming around momentarily to secure your straight jacket to the seat. Should you require anything during our flight....too bad.....you're just going to have to wait until we arrive at our destination.
Oh yes, and thank you for flying Padded-Room Airlines! I hope you all feel SAFE!?!

[climbing off my soapbox and ducking in anticipation for the rebutal]
 
I think you hit it on the head pretty good with the people working for TSA who aren't that bright and enjoy the chance to boss people around.

I'm at BWI's international pier easter sunday to see a friend off for a month-long deployment that I'm doing a month later myself . . . anyhow, as he is in the long winding ropes to go through the security checkpoint, he realizes he has the car keys.

He yells over to me, holds up the keys so I know what he has, and that he's going to toss them to me. I go pass this line just a couple of feet so he doesn't have to throw the keys far or over people, but the TSA woman starts screaming at me to get back behind the line.

I'm making no more movement toward heading down the intl concourse, am standing still, facing my friends, and holding out my arms anticipating the keys. I acknowledge that I hear her, but don't move until my friend throws the keys, she then sees what is going on BUT continues to hollar to me to get behind the line.

I AM STANDING STILL THE WHOLE TIME WAITING FOR THE KEYS, HOW MUCH OF A THREAT COULD I POSSIBLY BE?

Finally he throws the keys, and I step back, and probably ruined her day because she barked at someone and I didn't move exactly when she wanted me to.

The thought to say, "Blow me woman" came to mind, not that I would have the balls to say it (well if she really pissed me off enough), but then I figured she would take "blow" to me OH MY GOSH, HE HAS A BOMB, and unnecesarilly evacuate the airport and have me arrested, and I just didn't feel like going through all that trouble.
 
Here's a little nugget for you all about the TSA:

My wife and I were heading to Vegas from Atlanta. We were going through the line to get into the checkpoints. I noted that the person in front of me was quite disorganized.

Well the little TSA Troll overhead the word disorganized and thought that I was referring to security. I stated that I was not talking about security, but went on to say that on one visit to ATL one of his TSA coworkers decided that she'd been working one hour too many and decided to stop letting people through to the checkpoints, and how the TSA made me I feel soooo much safer.

The little troll (excuse me) shut the f*** up, because he knew that he was not only simply filling a vacancy, but could easily be replaced by a simple machine (although we've yet to find one simple enough).

I sincerely hope that this goes through. It's a stupid ass rule, and was since day one. I mean Bin Ladin is worth how many millions? Would he really miss $400 just so two of his flunkies could case a concourse? Please.

Naunga

BTW just noticed this little guy:
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pretty sweet. Although I think that Dancing Bunny that someone has as their avatar needs to be an option.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Here's a little nugget for you all about the TSA:

[/ QUOTE ]
And here's another:

My neighbor just recently resigned from the TSA. I didn't say anything previously, because ..... well.... you never know who reads these threads (just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get ya
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)... and I didn't want to jepordize his job.

That being said: He and I were discussing the TSA. He knows that I'm targeting a career in aviation.

He told me - verbatem: "I quit the TSA because all they're really doing is finding ways to • with innocent people. We're not allowed to stop the people we should be stopping."

I mentioned that some pilots feel targeted and his response? "Oh, absolutely!"

He went on, but that was the crux of the conversation.

There's your post 9/11 security.
 
It's good to see I am not alone in having a general feeling that the TSA is essentially useless !

Now, to convince Tom Ridge and the rest of Washington, DC the braintrust security department is not what it should....or could be.
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[ QUOTE ]
It's good to see I am not alone in having a general feeling that the TSA is essentially useless !

Now, to convince Tom Ridge and the rest of Washington, DC the braintrust security department is not what it should....or could be.
buck.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Be careful what you wish for, you just may get it. Anyone with real background in security could tighten the ship of TSA overnight, but you would like it even less. Just food for thought.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Be careful what you wish for, you just may get it. Anyone with real background in security could tighten the ship of TSA overnight, but you would like it even less. Just food for thought.

[/ QUOTE ]
True enough. I had a boss who's favorite phrase was, "You think I'm bad? Just wait until you see the [expletive deleted] who replaces me."

Problem with that is that it assumes (rather arrogantly) that it's already as good as it gets.

Not having a background in security all I can do it speculate, but...

It's always seemed to me that the best security is security that can't be watched and evaluated for weakness. Think about why the air marshalls aren't uniformed.

If I were wanting to get up to no good in an airport today, I would go and sit outside the checkpoint for a couple hours and watch. I'd see which times security is tightest, I'd find out who the supervisors were, I'd see who was gung ho about the TSA and who was just doing a job. I'd watch to see which shoes set off the dectors, and finally I'd probably hit several airports to see the differences (and who has the least sensetive dectors).

I'd spend time figuring out who I could "social engineer", that is who can I sit and make small talk with and distract or gain their confidence. I'd certainly watch what their profiles are, who gets through and who gets screened multiple times.

Remember these people care nothing about human lives, so I'd wonder if having a screaming kid with me gets me through faster etc.

On the other hand. If I can't do that it makes it harder for me to develop a strategy. If I know that beyond the security check point are armed, plain clothed Federal agents and because this is the USA, it could be anyone: man, woman, the hippie lookin' "teenager". I mean look at recent films. Alison Lohman was 24 in Matchstick Men playing 14. The right clothes, mannerisms, etc. can drop someone's age quite a bit. So now, I go through a metal detector and have my bag x-rayed, but I'd better be on my best behavior, because even grandpa next to me at the pisser could be packin' a gun and a badge. I mean look at Rudy from Survivor. Guy's in pretty good shape given his age. I would venture to guess that there are quite a few former SEAL's that are in that good of shape.

If you can't see it you can't evaluate it. Some people might argue that, "well if you have the appearance of strong security you'll intimidate people", kinda the "don't even try it" mentallity. The problem is that these people aren't intimidated, because they aren't afraid to die. Even if their mission were to fail because they got shot, because they would, in their warped way of thinking, still have succeeded. Esspecially if they took some American's with them. So intimidation won't work.

Steath and preemption, and not preemption in terms of bomb the hell out of a country, but rather keeping up with the intelligence and thwarting plots before they get off the ground.

The point that seems to get lost quite a bit in dicussion about 9/11 is that the hijackers followed the rules. They went through security and they knew what they could take on board and what they couldn't. Even the shoe bomber guy knew how to get around security. God help us if some terrorist makes a pair of BVD's out of plastic explosives.

We could get like Isreal and give everyone the third degree before they get on the plane, completely go through their bags, and suspend all their civil rights before they even get past the ticket counter, but then again, given that our airlines aren't government owned how long would it be before Delta gets into the bus business. And some might say, "well why not have the government run the airlines?" Yeah, ask Amtrak how well that's workin' out.
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The unfortunately reality is that our leaders must balance security against, economics, against civil rights. It's not easy, but at the expense of sounding cliché, but if we can put a man on the moon...

Anyhow, I'm glad to see that people are coming to their senses...of course it was only a matter of time.

Naunga
 
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Think about why the air marshalls aren't uniformed

[/ QUOTE ]

I tend to think about why they have airport ID badges around their necks and board through the jetway stairs instead of with the rest of the pax. Kinda gives away the element of surprise. ALL of the air marshall's I've seen in MCO are early 20s to mid 30s and clean cut. It is a pretty good mix of males and females, though. However, line up 6 people in a row, pull any of our rampers, and they'll pick the air marshall on the first try.
 
[ QUOTE ]

It's always seemed to me that the best security is security that can't be watched and evaluated for weakness. Think about why the air marshalls aren't uniformed.

[/ QUOTE ]

Security needs to be layered, there may well be things going on behind the scenes that we the traveling public aren’t even aware of. The Israelis have a huge visible security force, plus the watch every move that people make.

[ QUOTE ]
If I were wanting to get up to no good in an airport today, I would go and sit outside the checkpoint for a couple hours and watch. I'd see which times security is tightest, I'd find out who the supervisors were, I'd see who was gung ho about the TSA and who was just doing a job. I'd watch to see which shoes set off the dectors, and finally I'd probably hit several airports to see the differences (and who has the least sensetive dectors).

[/ QUOTE ]

So, if you take all of those measures away you put the bad guys one step closer to the plane. I think it would be difficult to ‘case’ effectively the average security checkpoint. Someone will notice an individual who’s a watcher. Becuase lots of us are people watchers when in public.

[ QUOTE ]
I'd spend time figuring out who I could "social engineer", that is who can I sit and make small talk with and distract or gain their confidence. I'd certainly watch what their profiles are, who gets through and who gets screened multiple times.

[/ QUOTE ]

That’s why you need a system that is the least predictable. Let every old lady through and guess who’ll show up as an old lady. Let everyone wear their shoes and guess where the weapons/explosives will be hidden. There are many esged weapons available that will not set off a metal detector.

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Remember these people care nothing about human lives, so I'd wonder if having a screaming kid with me gets me through faster etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

That’s why we can’t make allowances for any class of passenger.

[ QUOTE ]
because this is the USA, it could be anyone: man, woman, the hippie lookin' "teenager". I mean look at recent films. Alison Lohman was 24 in Matchstick Men playing 14. The right clothes, mannerisms, etc. can drop someone's age quite a bit. So now, I go through a metal detector and have my bag x-rayed, but I'd better be on my best behavior, because even grandpa next to me at the pisser could be packin' a gun and a badge. I mean look at Rudy from Survivor. Guy's in pretty good shape given his age. I would venture to guess that there are quite a few former SEAL's that are in that good of shape.

[/ QUOTE ]

All of your arguments can be applied with equal weigh to those who would do you or your loved ones harm. It’s very delicate balancing act. Let the people travel, but keep the bad folks out. It’ll almost never be foolproof.

[ QUOTE ]
Steath and preemption, and not preemption in terms of bomb the hell out of a country, but rather keeping up with the intelligence and thwarting plots before they get off the ground.

[/ QUOTE ]


Great ideas, but our Intel services were very effectively emasculated for the past thirty years. It takes time to build up reliable human Intel.


[ QUOTE ]
The unfortunately reality is that our leaders must balance security against, economics, against civil rights. It's not easy, but at the expense of sounding cliché, but if we can put a man on the moon...

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is why for all it’s faults the TSA is what we’ve got. And we didn't get to the moon overnight. The TSA will evolve and hopefully become what its potential is. A strong security force dedicated to protecting the American public.
 
I know I've mentioned this before but I'll say it again to make things clear. I currently work for the TSA. I can agree with most of the stuff you guys post about this particular organization. (Just not gonna tell you what parts
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)

The TSA is starting to phase out of airports. Come November, every airport will have the option to get rid of TSA and go back to civilian security. KMIA has already announced it's plans of getting rid of TSA while KDFW said they will keep the TSA.

Like I said, it's upto the airports. Write a letter to your local airport operations manager and tell him/her your feelings about the TSA and you might just get what you wish for!
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I tend to think about why they have airport ID badges around their necks and board through the jetway stairs

[/ QUOTE ]

I saw a couple in MSP awhile back and what surprised me was when going through the security checkpoints, they actually went through the sides and not through the metal detectors. They flashed their badges and in doing so, if you looked closely, you could see that they were strapped. Just a little obvious.
 
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The TSA is starting to phase out of airports. Come November, every airport will have the option to get rid of TSA and go back to civilian security.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then where are they going? Back to the drive-thru?
 
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Security needs to be layered, there may well be things going on behind the scenes that we the traveling public aren’t even aware of. The Israelis have a huge visible security force, plus the watch every move that people make.

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. Let me make clear I don't advocate removing checkpoints, but assuming that (as the DHS has appeared to) those checkpoints staffed by -- as another poster put it -- "people who should be handing you fries through a window" is about as stupid as those in the government who thought that no one would ever be stupid enough to attack us on our own soil...opps forgot about that whole Pearl Harbor thing.

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Someone will notice an individual who’s a watcher.

[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps. Of course that's assuming that the same person goes there everytime. I mean I know the climate is different post 9/11, but the 9/11 guys made several "practice" runs before pulling the trigger. I'm not going to say anything more about this point...we could argue all night about it. I'll concede that you're kinda right, if you concede that I'm kinda right.

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That’s why you need a system that is the least predictable.

[/ QUOTE ]
Again agreed. The problem is that the system needs to at least be somewhat consistent between airports. Some airports require you to do XYZ and some don't. These are not foils IMHO, they're just holes. Perfect example: ATL required a photo ID to board the plane, LAS didn't. I think the TSA's goal should be consistent unpredictability. Meaning all airports follow the same procedures.

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Let everyone wear their shoes and guess where the weapons/explosives will be hidden.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well unfortunately you are no longer required to remove your shoes, unless you set off the detector. The TSA of course suggests that you remove them to avoid unecessary delays. Again on my last trip, I never removed my shoes, my belt, or my cap. On my trip from CAK to MYR each of those items set off the dectector. Apparently ATL and LAS aren't as big a target as lil CAK and MYR. Or maybe the TSA guys at those airports -- who would normally be asking you if you wanted at cart at Wal-Mart -- got sick of wanding people and fighting with them over their shoes.

Also on the subject of social engineering. You should read Kevin Mitkick's book _The Art of Deception: Controlling the Human Element of Security_ in which he says the following:

"It's natural to yearn for a feeling of absolute safety, leading many people to settle for a false sense of security. Consider the responsible and loving homeowner who has a Medico, a tumber lock known as being pickproof, installed in his front door to protect his wife, his children, and his home. He's now comfortable that he has made his family much safer against intruders. But what about the intruder who break a window, or cracks the code to the garage door opener? How about installing a robust security system? Better, but still no guarantee. Expensive locks or no, the homeowner remains vulnerable. Why? Because the human factor is truly security's weakest link."

He goes on to say the following:

"Security is too often merely an illusion, an illusion sometimes made even worse gullibility, naïevté, or ignorance come into play. The world's most respected scientist of the twentieth century, Albert Einstein, is quoted as saying "Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former." In the end, social engineering attacks can succeed when people are stupid or, more commonly, simply ignorant about good security practices."

People are, in the end, human, and they can't help but be human. So, if I want to get through security, I take a crying baby through the line being run by the middle age woman with a wedding band, because it's a good bet that she knows what a pain it is to travel with a screaming infant, and I also have the backup of the workers not wanting to end up on the six o'clock news because they hassled some poor guy trying to care for his kid while his wife is at home dealing with <fill in the blank>. People unless they're highly trained are very easy to manipulate. People used to be afraid that movie theaters were using subliminal messages to get you to buy concessions, but the fact of the matter is that's not necessary, just show someone a picture of a bucket of popcorn, or a cold drink, Lower the temp inside Starbucks and suddenly people are dying for a hot cup of joe. We're manipulated all the time. Just watch TV for two hours and see. Of course the worst attempt to manipulate people into thinking the DHS is great is that stupid show Threat Matrix on ABC. Ugh. Is that even still on?

[ QUOTE ]
All of your arguments can be applied with equal weigh to those who would do you or your loved ones harm. It’s very delicate balancing act. Let the people travel, but keep the bad folks out. It’ll almost never be foolproof.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with you again. People need to realize that there are bad people out there who will do you harm, but they need to go on living their lives. If you look at and give heed to crime statistics it would seem that people should lock themselves in a bunker for the rest of their lives, and that works great until you find the disease stats that basically say everything gives you cancer, and you're doomed to die a slow horrible death.

So yes, bad things happen. Kinda like in aviation: you'd never assume that you're never going to have an inflight emergency, because A) that's just crazy talk and B) assuming that lulls you into a false sense of security and you never would see a need to prepare.

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Great ideas, but our Intel services were very effectively emasculated for the past thirty years. It takes time to build up reliable human Intel.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I'll differ with you on this. Yes we don't have the same network of spies etc. that we had back then, but even with a large grain of salt the holes that the 9/11 comission has found is at the very least disturbing. The fact that the FBI received several directives, but never communicated them to the field is the one that perplexes me the most. The fact that domestic terrorism was not a top priority for the current DOJ leadership in the wake of Oklahoma City and the first attack on the WTC is even worse. Of course hindsight is always 20/20, but seems to me that we have too short a memory. We're so desparate to return to that sense of security that we lock up the perps and say, "well they're locked up and that won't happen again".

Then when something does happen we scrurry around, make military threats, limit civil liberties, and assume that everyone who looks like the perp, practices the same religion, or in the case of 9/11 flies an airplane is a danger, but then we cool off, we back it all out, because in the end we realized that it didn't make us any safer. We then, however, miss the next step. The step where we go back and say, "okay this doesn't help, but what will?"

If we continue with our normal pattern, the TSA will become nothing more than an administrative body, who regulates and trains, but has almost no active role (much like the FAA). All the post 9/11 rules will either be removed or watered down. We'll get out of Iraq, and we'll be back to where we've wanted to be since 9/11: fat, dumb, and happy...and as unsafe as ever.

One final note: with regards to letting only ticketed passengers on the concourse, I was speaking with a friend of mine who's a bit older, and he remembers that rule being in place during all those hijackings in the late 70's. It wasn't long before it was removed. Funny how history repeats itself.

At the very least hopefully this post gave you a good book to read.

Later.

Naunga
 
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Then where are they going? Back to the drive-thru?

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Does that mean I have to take my shoes off to get my Whopper?
 
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Then where are they going? Back to the drive-thru?

[/ QUOTE ]

Most of them will probably take the pay cut and work for minimum wage as security. I'm moving to Florida in October and plan on attending a flight academy.

Working for the TSA has been an experience. Last month I was afforded the opportunity to go TDY to Newark/NYC for a week! WooHoo!
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The way people are talking, I get the impression that some airports have never had security before 9/11?
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Every airpot I have been to has been the same old hassle, even before 9/11. Thats just me.....
 
[ QUOTE ]
The way people are talking, I get the impression that some airports have never had security before 9/11?
confused.gif
Every airpot I have been to has been the same old hassle, even before 9/11. Thats just me.....

[/ QUOTE ]

No comparison. I flew on September 10, 2001. I showed up around 40 minutes before my flight, just like I used to be able to, and was pissed that I was there ten minutes early. No stupid checking for my boarding pass or any nonsense like that. Just go through the metal detector, and get on my way. Oh, yeah, did I mention that I had a utility knife in my bag, too? I was going to a trade show and had to open boxes of material, so we always carried those with us.

On September 16, when I flew back home, it was completely different. I foolishly forgot to take out the knife because I never had to do it before. That did not make the people screening my bags happy!
 
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Oh, yeah, did I mention that I had a utility knife in my bag, too?

[/ QUOTE ]

No you left that out. But thanks for mentioning that!
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Seriously, I don't remember ever being able to take a utility knife on a plane. I always remembered seeing a prohibited items poster that had knives listed as a prohibited item. Oh well.
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Pre September 11, you were allowed to take small knives on board. I think you were allowed up to three inches. I just took one of those knives with the retractable blade on them. They were legal. Never had a problem with them.
 
That's right....I always carry a small pocket knife that was given to me by my father. It goes everywhere with me.

That being said:

Pre- 9/11....I would put the knife in my carry-on luggage.....I didn't try to leave it in my pocket
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, however.

Now.....don't even think about it. It would be taken away in an instant! Hell, don't forget about the pointy fingernail files as well! Those have to go too!
 
On September 12, 2001 I flew and didn't notice any difference in security measures. That actually made me worry a little bit.

Oh well, guess IF the rules ever change back i'll start measuring my knives!!
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