braunpilot
What day is it?
This is the article online about the lawsuit currently in process. I do not know the validity of the article and wonder if anyone on here is tracking those lawsuits?
Federal Judge Rules Flight 3407 CVR Can Be Used As Evidence
- Thread starter braunpilot
- Start date
ozziecat35
4 out of 5 great lakes prefer Michigan.
Re: Federal Judge Rules Flight 3407 CVR Can Be Used As Evide
Pulling against the stickshaker?
Pulling against the stickshaker?
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
Re: Federal Judge Rules Flight 3407 CVR Can Be Used As Evide
We don't know that for certain yet. Such things.. especially legal things.. take time.
I do agree however that I wish ALPA were weighing in on this immediately and heavily.
We don't know that for certain yet. Such things.. especially legal things.. take time.
I do agree however that I wish ALPA were weighing in on this immediately and heavily.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
Re: Federal Judge Rules Flight 3407 CVR Can Be Used As Evide
Ironic coming from a Skywester...just saying!! Don't taze me!
Ironic coming from a Skywester...just saying!! Don't taze me!
Re: Federal Judge Rules Flight 3407 CVR Can Be Used As Evide
Real question, not flaimbait. Why is everyone so against the CVR's being used in a lawsuit?
If you are of
This is a serious question and I'd like to hear some well formed opnions, not just someone spouting off because someone before them thought it would be good to agree.
Real question, not flaimbait. Why is everyone so against the CVR's being used in a lawsuit?
If you are of
then please explain how, and why this would be different than say a 911 tape being released of someone being murdered while their family sits there and listens in the court room.
This is a serious question and I'd like to hear some well formed opnions, not just someone spouting off because someone before them thought it would be good to agree.
TUCKnTRUCK
That guy
Re: Federal Judge Rules Flight 3407 CVR Can Be Used As Evide
Because the only people that get to listen to it are directly involved in the accident investigation. There is absolutely no need for anybody else to hear it. Its a sleezball tactic to more money by using the tape to shock. It will not introduce any facts or evidence that the transcript wouldn't have.
The recordings need to be left out, and I hope the ntsb also fights to hold them
Because the only people that get to listen to it are directly involved in the accident investigation. There is absolutely no need for anybody else to hear it. Its a sleezball tactic to more money by using the tape to shock. It will not introduce any facts or evidence that the transcript wouldn't have.
The recordings need to be left out, and I hope the ntsb also fights to hold them
Re: Federal Judge Rules Flight 3407 CVR Can Be Used As Evide
I get what your saying, but I'm not sure I agree. In other court proceedings that are civil, not criminal, I think they allow stuff like this. For example wrongfull death lawsuits. In the recent Toyota incidents, the LEO who died in San Diego had his 911 tapes played for jurors. All you would likely hear in iht CVR's would be things in the cockpit, not the poeple in the back.
Again, I'm not flaming, I'm just trying to understand why this would be different than any other case.
I get what your saying, but I'm not sure I agree. In other court proceedings that are civil, not criminal, I think they allow stuff like this. For example wrongfull death lawsuits. In the recent Toyota incidents, the LEO who died in San Diego had his 911 tapes played for jurors. All you would likely hear in iht CVR's would be things in the cockpit, not the poeple in the back.
Again, I'm not flaming, I'm just trying to understand why this would be different than any other case.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Re: Federal Judge Rules Flight 3407 CVR Can Be Used As Evide
No.
The End.
It's not up for debate to those of us in the 121 Community. And ALPA better start speaking up soon.
Transcripts of the CVR are just as good for evidence and are already public record.
This came third party - but essentially a member of another forum sent this to the author of the article.
No.
The End.
It's not up for debate to those of us in the 121 Community. And ALPA better start speaking up soon.
Transcripts of the CVR are just as good for evidence and are already public record.
This came third party - but essentially a member of another forum sent this to the author of the article.
Rocketman99
Frozen Guppy Manipulator
Re: Federal Judge Rules Flight 3407 CVR Can Be Used As Evide
It's a very slippery slope. You allow the actual recording to be used in a civili suit and then next it's in any case and eventually it will be freely monitored by airlines to make sure no crewmember says anything derogatory to the company at any time. It's the keeping the camel's nose out from under the ten principle. Just like scope.
Once you relax the restrcitions a little, the line gets moved further and further away from where it should be. Kind of like the only reason programs like ASAP are successful are because they protect the reporter of the event. Without that, you set the safety programs back to the stone age. I sure as hell would never ever report that I made a mistake that I got away with or were involved in a questionable scenario if by reporting it my job could be in jeopardy for it. I'm pretty damn sure that is also true for 100% of the rest of the pilots currently flying.
It's a very slippery slope. You allow the actual recording to be used in a civili suit and then next it's in any case and eventually it will be freely monitored by airlines to make sure no crewmember says anything derogatory to the company at any time. It's the keeping the camel's nose out from under the ten principle. Just like scope.
Once you relax the restrcitions a little, the line gets moved further and further away from where it should be. Kind of like the only reason programs like ASAP are successful are because they protect the reporter of the event. Without that, you set the safety programs back to the stone age. I sure as hell would never ever report that I made a mistake that I got away with or were involved in a questionable scenario if by reporting it my job could be in jeopardy for it. I'm pretty damn sure that is also true for 100% of the rest of the pilots currently flying.
NickH
Uber Driver
Re: Federal Judge Rules Flight 3407 CVR Can Be Used As Evide
The judges ruling is correct:
"Production of the recording [as evidence] is necessary because the written transcript does not and cannot reflect tone of voice, pitch, volume or inflection, nor does it necessarily accurately reflect ambient and other noises pertinent to the aircraft's operation,"
The phrase 'I've never seen so much ice', for example, could be an expression of terror or a remark of indifference from a professional aviator who is confident in their abilities.
I see no problem with these lawsuits, and based on the NTSB report and the media (rather than the evidence presented in court) I've formed the opinion that these deaths were wrongfully caused by incompetent pilots hired by an airline to save money.
The judges ruling is correct:
"Production of the recording [as evidence] is necessary because the written transcript does not and cannot reflect tone of voice, pitch, volume or inflection, nor does it necessarily accurately reflect ambient and other noises pertinent to the aircraft's operation,"
The phrase 'I've never seen so much ice', for example, could be an expression of terror or a remark of indifference from a professional aviator who is confident in their abilities.
I see no problem with these lawsuits, and based on the NTSB report and the media (rather than the evidence presented in court) I've formed the opinion that these deaths were wrongfully caused by incompetent pilots hired by an airline to save money.
Nark
Macho Superpilot
Re: Federal Judge Rules Flight 3407 CVR Can Be Used As Evide
This isn't a slippery slope principle. This is Jurisprudence.
This will be appealed, and hopefully overturned.
However in the same scope, the ASRS and ASAP programs are also meant protect the pilots against certificate action (read liability), but we've seen where that has led...
I've edited to add that I agree with NickH, inexperience/incompetence killed those passengers.
This isn't a slippery slope principle. This is Jurisprudence.
This will be appealed, and hopefully overturned.
However in the same scope, the ASRS and ASAP programs are also meant protect the pilots against certificate action (read liability), but we've seen where that has led...
I've edited to add that I agree with NickH, inexperience/incompetence killed those passengers.
FlyChicaga
Vintage Restoration
Re: Federal Judge Rules Flight 3407 CVR Can Be Used As Evide
While I don't agree that the CVR should be used in the civil liability proceedings, I approach the CVR the same way police officers approach dash-cameras:
"It can either save your ass, or fry your ass."
I always remember that everything I say and do is being monitored and recorded. I only hope that should something catastrophic happen, those reviewing the event will see that I did everything in my power to reverse the course of action and attempt to bring the event to a positive conclusion. I do NOT want my legacy to be, "He should have never been in that airplane."
While I do not want my words to be used against me post mortem, I realize that the possibility is there that they could be. So, each day, I go to work realizing what I say is ON TAPE. On a tape that is not accessible by me.
While I don't agree that the CVR should be used in the civil liability proceedings, I approach the CVR the same way police officers approach dash-cameras:
"It can either save your ass, or fry your ass."
I always remember that everything I say and do is being monitored and recorded. I only hope that should something catastrophic happen, those reviewing the event will see that I did everything in my power to reverse the course of action and attempt to bring the event to a positive conclusion. I do NOT want my legacy to be, "He should have never been in that airplane."
While I do not want my words to be used against me post mortem, I realize that the possibility is there that they could be. So, each day, I go to work realizing what I say is ON TAPE. On a tape that is not accessible by me.
Orange Anchor
New Member
Re: Federal Judge Rules Flight 3407 CVR Can Be Used As Evide
Which brings us to what other countries are doing and that is the criminalization of errors.
The CVRs were put there for accident investigation, not litigation. Listening to someone die versus having the semi-literate read a transcript with jargon and terms they do not understand works a lot better as it injects emotion into the play.
A number of years ago, a transcript floated around of the interrogation of the FO at the public hearing. The lawyer for the family asked questions like the frequency the radar operated on and other obscure bits of information. The FO was, of course, unable to answer the questions and the families and media attending concluded the FO was inept, an idiot and a true know-nothing.
The suits are about one thing. Getting money for the lawyer and for the families. The CVR is about ONE thing.. EMOTION. It is a great propellant to be power the suing parties argument.
Which brings us to what other countries are doing and that is the criminalization of errors.
The CVRs were put there for accident investigation, not litigation. Listening to someone die versus having the semi-literate read a transcript with jargon and terms they do not understand works a lot better as it injects emotion into the play.
A number of years ago, a transcript floated around of the interrogation of the FO at the public hearing. The lawyer for the family asked questions like the frequency the radar operated on and other obscure bits of information. The FO was, of course, unable to answer the questions and the families and media attending concluded the FO was inept, an idiot and a true know-nothing.
The suits are about one thing. Getting money for the lawyer and for the families. The CVR is about ONE thing.. EMOTION. It is a great propellant to be power the suing parties argument.
BajtheJino
I'm looking at you.
Re: Federal Judge Rules Flight 3407 CVR Can Be Used As Evide
I'm more disguested by the families that see this as an easy way to get rich. These people don't understand Duty Time, Rest Requirements or Total Time and they don't care to. Just like the 9/11 families that sued the crap out of everyone they could. Money makes everthing O-Tay!
Sometimes people do die in terrible ACCIDENTS.
I'm more disguested by the families that see this as an easy way to get rich. These people don't understand Duty Time, Rest Requirements or Total Time and they don't care to. Just like the 9/11 families that sued the crap out of everyone they could. Money makes everthing O-Tay!
Sometimes people do die in terrible ACCIDENTS.
gne in prog
Well-Known Member
Re: Federal Judge Rules Flight 3407 CVR Can Be Used As Evide
Money also motivates companies not to employee grossly incompetent people and give their other people adequate training.
People die from terrible negligence everyday too.
Money also motivates companies not to employee grossly incompetent people and give their other people adequate training.
People die from terrible negligence everyday too.
Pilotforhire587
Lycra Man
Re: Federal Judge Rules Flight 3407 CVR Can Be Used As Evide
I think most 121 pilots, including myself are opposed to it being used because it is a gateway for other uses. The law currently states that CVR recording can only be used in an accident investigation. If they allow the recording to be used for this case, "outside of an investigation into the crash," you open the door for companies to try and use the CVR recording to discipline pilots for small errors that didn't result in a crash or harm to anyone, Sterile Cockpit Violations, or even just bad mouthing during the flight. The cockpit presents a safe place to talk about company issues that are on your mind with other pilots where no one will hear what you say... If I have a problem with the company DO and say some bad things about him in the cockpit, you are opening the door on that being grounds to get me fired!
I don't agree with that being allowed!
I think most 121 pilots, including myself are opposed to it being used because it is a gateway for other uses. The law currently states that CVR recording can only be used in an accident investigation. If they allow the recording to be used for this case, "outside of an investigation into the crash," you open the door for companies to try and use the CVR recording to discipline pilots for small errors that didn't result in a crash or harm to anyone, Sterile Cockpit Violations, or even just bad mouthing during the flight. The cockpit presents a safe place to talk about company issues that are on your mind with other pilots where no one will hear what you say... If I have a problem with the company DO and say some bad things about him in the cockpit, you are opening the door on that being grounds to get me fired!
I don't agree with that being allowed!
Pilotforhire587
Lycra Man
Re: Federal Judge Rules Flight 3407 CVR Can Be Used As Evide
More like money motivates them TOO hire inexperienced guys... They make far more then what they will lose in any lawsuit
More like money motivates them TOO hire inexperienced guys... They make far more then what they will lose in any lawsuit
Inverted
mmmmmm wine
Re: Federal Judge Rules Flight 3407 CVR Can Be Used As Evide
Thats pretty rude to say they don't care. What makes you think they even know at all? The general public has no clue that we work more than 8 hours, or have low hours, and are way under paid. How and why would they even know that stuff?
I realize the crew were personal friends to people on this board, it is sad, it shouldn't have happened. But at the same time it will not change unless these types of practices come to light. We have got to stop under paying Pilot's. As well, need to make sure there are qualified crew to operate these aircraft. I think the transcript and CVR both show some pretty disturbing traits about the regional airlines and their habits. I am sick of these crappy regionals and their reign.
I think we can all agree that the FO will usually be less experienced than the Captain. In this case the evidence shows inexperience by both Pilot's. I hope by ruling the CVR into evidence it shows we need better training by the regionals, more recurrent training, and of course better pay and shorter duty.
Thats pretty rude to say they don't care. What makes you think they even know at all? The general public has no clue that we work more than 8 hours, or have low hours, and are way under paid. How and why would they even know that stuff?
I realize the crew were personal friends to people on this board, it is sad, it shouldn't have happened. But at the same time it will not change unless these types of practices come to light. We have got to stop under paying Pilot's. As well, need to make sure there are qualified crew to operate these aircraft. I think the transcript and CVR both show some pretty disturbing traits about the regional airlines and their habits. I am sick of these crappy regionals and their reign.
I think we can all agree that the FO will usually be less experienced than the Captain. In this case the evidence shows inexperience by both Pilot's. I hope by ruling the CVR into evidence it shows we need better training by the regionals, more recurrent training, and of course better pay and shorter duty.