Federal Judge Condems Delta for Weaponization of Psychiatry in reprisal of Female Pilot

Derg

New Arizona, Il Duce/Warlord
Staff member
Well, here’s the thing. My experience with ALPA has been “meh.” But I wouldn’t have it any other way. Been non-union, seen that.

2007-early 2012 regional airline. Of that, 2007 to very early 2011 were spent under a CBA dated 1999-2005, amendable for friggin near 6 yrs. Then we got hosed in a SLI. Early 2012 moved to non-union carrier. While I liked the money saved on dues, I saw enough things to be scared about not having representation. We had a chance to vote an in-house union in about 2013, I was against it. Then we had the chance in 2015 to vote in ALPA, and I gladly took it. But I’ll be honest, it was mostly due to the fear of a merger. Getting the ALPA merger policy as an underdog compared to other larger carriers was going to be essential. 9 months after the yes vote, we had a merger. And my final SLI position was phenomenal! That right there made everything worth it as far as I’m concerned for ALPA now that this place will be my final career spot. As a CA for a couple years, it’s also nice to know someone else in my corner in case I need it. I’m glad we have ALPA. I’m just not all-ALPA lovey dovey. That’s all :)

And Derg, I’m sure you’ve seen this and can agree, ALPA spends 95% of their disclipnary time on the 1%er that are the problem children. Imagine of how much better ALPAs time could be spent if it wasn’t for these people making stupid decisions and/or actions.

And before constellation finds my Infiniti post from 3 years ago, I’ll just admit the Infiniti actually went back and we just got a 2021 Highlander this month as the new lease for 36 months.
That's a lot of words.

But it's all about duty of fair representation. It doesn't mean hiding bodies or get out of jail free cards for people that were profoundly and unapologetically stupid.
 

Cherokee_Cruiser

Well-Known Member
We have reroute rules, of course. ButI mean there are some elements of the pilot mentality that will denigrate something, but then swiftly smack the A/B switch and beg for it’s help the next moment.
Right now the biggest beotchfest on our internal forum is Boeing vs Airbus. You wanna see denigration? Nothing like arguing over fleet types snd fleet decision, something pilots had ZERO control over.
Been there, got the t-shirt. Saved several people’s jobs, only to have them turn around and trash me and then sue ALPA, naming me in the suit. We prevailed, and they had to pay our attorneys‘ fees. But still. I guess I got a free trip to New York for a deposition and I got to be a smart ass to Haber to his face out of the deal. So it didn’t all suck. :)



Yes, lots of pilots are scum. You’re exhibit A.



Learn to accept that life isn’t always fair?
That’s rich coming from you. Care to share with JC your story about removal from the AirTran union committee with the merger?

Learn to accept life isn’t always fair? Yeah, true. But this is a seniority system. When people merge and feel spite, they tend to either take it out on forums or crew rooms, or worse in the courts. The extreme example was US Airways where the pilot group found a loophole that the SLI wouldn’t be implemented until the JCBA was done and decided to de-certify ALPA. Ouch!
 

SlumTodd_Millionaire

Evil Landlord Capitalist
That’s rich coming from you. Care to share with JC your story about removal from the AirTran union committee with the merger?
Sure! Although your facts are a bit off (as usual). I was never on the Merger Committee. I was the MEC Vice Chairman. The Merger Committee was drinking the Southwest kool aid about their CULTure, and I was ringing the alarm bells internally trying to convince the MEC that this was going to end up badly with a seniority integration that screwed our members because the MC didn’t want to go to arbitration. The MEC didn’t want to listen and had complete faith in the MC. I refused to back down and insisted that we needed to put tighter controls on the MC (something that’s allowed under ALPA Merger Policy in a merger with a non-ALPA carrier). The MEC didn’t like that and wanted to just put all their trust in the MC. I turned in my resignation in protest, making it effective I think a month later, allowing for a smooth transition to a replacement Vice Chair. Some members of the MEC got mad and insisted that I make the resignation effective immediately if I was going to resign. I refused, as I didn’t think it was responsible to just up and quit with no time for an orderly transition, especially since the MEC Chairman was essentially a figurehead who had delegated virtually all of the day-to-day running of the union to me. When I refused to amend the letter, they recalled me. The MEC put out a letter saying that they had recalled me because I was interfering with the MC. A lie. The MC actually put out their own letter a few days later refuting it and saying that they did not request my recall. It was a mess.

A few weeks later the MC agreed to a deal on the SLI. As I predicted, it hosed our pilots. The MEC hated it, voted it down, and then asked me to come back as Executive Administrator to help clean up the mess. I agreed, but ended up resigning again a couple of months later because the MEC still didn’t have the stones to control the Merger Committee and force an arbitration. The end result was the awful SLI we got.

When people merge and feel spite, they tend to either take it out on forums or crew rooms, or worse in the courts.
Yes, like I said, people are scum.
 

nc1982

Well-Known Member
Sure! Although your facts are a bit off (as usual). I was never on the Merger Committee. I was the MEC Vice Chairman. The Merger Committee was drinking the Southwest kool aid about their CULTure, and I was ringing the alarm bells internally trying to convince the MEC that this was going to end up badly with a seniority integration that screwed our members because the MC didn’t want to go to arbitration. The MEC didn’t want to listen and had complete faith in the MC. I refused to back down and insisted that we needed to put tighter controls on the MC (something that’s allowed under ALPA Merger Policy in a merger with a non-ALPA carrier). The MEC didn’t like that and wanted to just put all their trust in the MC. I turned in my resignation in protest, making it effective I think a month later, allowing for a smooth transition to a replacement Vice Chair. Some members of the MEC got mad and insisted that I make the resignation effective immediately if I was going to resign. I refused, as I didn’t think it was responsible to just up and quit with no time for an orderly transition, especially since the MEC Chairman was essentially a figurehead who had delegated virtually all of the day-to-day running of the union to me. When I refused to amend the letter, they recalled me. The MEC put out a letter saying that they had recalled me because I was interfering with the MC. A lie. The MC actually put out their own letter a few days later refuting it and saying that they did not request my recall. It was a mess.

A few weeks later the MC agreed to a deal on the SLI. As I predicted, it hosed our pilots. The MEC hated it, voted it down, and then asked me to come back as Executive Administrator to help clean up the mess. I agreed, but ended up resigning again a couple of months later because the MEC still didn’t have the stones to control the Merger Committee and force an arbitration. The end result was the awful SLI we got.



Yes, like I said, people are scum.
Damn @Cherokee_Cruiser. Todd just whipped it out and slapped you on the left cheek with it.
 

SlumTodd_Millionaire

Evil Landlord Capitalist
It's an interesting history to be sure. You can start to appreciate how very difficult it would be to break big events like a ATN-SWA merger up into talking points.
There are hundreds upon hundreds of pages of depositions from the lawsuit. Anyone bored enough could waste an entire weekend reading through all of our sordid history. :)
 

Autothrust Blue

Commander Air Group, BSG-75
I read a decent portion of the trial transcript, and have read the ruling (which is a judgment, not a settlement—Judge Morris urged the parties to settle in the closing portion of the hearing, saying “[Delta] will not like my ruling”) in full as well.

I’ve got opinions. None of them are terribly nice.

edited to add: I seem to remember the trial itself was running when Dickson was up for Senate confirmation. It’s semi rare for FAA Administrators to be confirmed via roll call as opposed to simple voice vote; the Administrator’s (then alleged, now established) record of retaliation, especially considering the FAA’s own internal retaliation issues, was a major sticking point for Senate Dems.
 

SlumTodd_Millionaire

Evil Landlord Capitalist
I read a decent portion of the trial transcript, and have read the ruling (which is a judgment, not a settlement—Judge Morris urged the parties to settle in the closing portion of the hearing, saying “[Delta] will not like my ruling”) in full as well.

I’ve got opinions. None of them are terribly nice.

edited to add: I seem to remember the trial itself was running when Dickson was up for Senate confirmation. It’s semi rare for FAA Administrators to be confirmed via roll call as opposed to simple voice vote; the Administrator’s (then alleged, now established) record of retaliation, especially considering the FAA’s own internal retaliation issues, was a major sticking point for Senate Dems.
We were talking about the AirTran case. Jamison v. ALPA.
 

Cherokee_Cruiser

Well-Known Member
Damn @Cherokee_Cruiser. Todd just whipped it out and slapped you on the left cheek with it.
His version. But I’ll believe it. After reading that, does anyone blame a pilot for suing ALPA? That whole thing reads like something out a child’s play for pettiness. Why is it ALPA changed its merger policy tenets when United guys first thought they would be merging with US Air? Why did ALPA change its policy after US/AWA where a jcba would be done first and then a SLI?

In the first case, career expectations (aka wide bodies) were put in to protect the UA pilots from a mostly domestic carrier that was US. In the second case, wake of US Airways becoming USAPA, the lawsuits, and a lesson learned that longevity with one carrier really does matter.

ATN, what about that guy who wrote the Citrus on my Mind blog? He assassinated your character with his version of the truth. Anything happen to him?

ALPA is an association with politics, like any other group/union/association. As such you will have disagreements that end up in court. But using “scum” pilots is a phrase I would only reserve for those who are scum.
 

SlumTodd_Millionaire

Evil Landlord Capitalist
His version. But I’ll believe it.
The depositions and thousands of pages of documents (including my personal emails) are on the public docket. You're welcome to read through it all if you'd like.

(This is your regularly scheduled reminder to never put anything in an email that you wouldn't want shown to the world on a courtroom TV screen or in a public docket on the internet)

After reading that, does anyone blame a pilot for suing ALPA?
Yes.

That whole thing reads like something out a child’s play for pettiness.
No, it reads like a bunch of people with very different opinions on what is best for the pilots fighting like hell to do what they think is best. The people who recalled me were mostly brand new reps with little experience in any union work at all who simply didn't know what they were doing. But they were doing the best they could with their little experience, and they were doing what they believed was right. Even the guy who led the effort (who did have a decent amount of experience) was doing what he felt was right. He and I bitterly disagreed about just about everything. But we both were fighting for our convictions (and now we get along just fine).

It's very easy for someone like you to sit behind your keyboard, or behind a lawyer, and hurl accusations and slander people. It's a much different world to have to actually make tough decisions that impact the lives of tens of thousands of people in a profound way. You have no idea what it's like to lose sleep because you wonder whether you're going to be the one responsible for putting people out of work because you can't be entirely sure if your strategy is the right one, even though you believe that it is.

Why is it ALPA changed its merger policy tenets when United guys first thought they would be merging with US Air? Why did ALPA change its policy after US/AWA where a jcba would be done first and then a SLI?
Because lessons are learned after every major event, especially mergers. It's always a continual process to fine-tune policies to cover every conceivable aspect. And just like the military is always fighting the last war, ALPA is always fighting the last negotiation or merger. We can't see into the future and know what we need to do to prevent problems yet to come. All we can do is learn from the past and try to make the policies better with each passing event.

ATN, what about that guy who wrote the Citrus on my Mind blog? He assassinated your character with his version of the truth. Anything happen to him?
I offered a cash reward to anyone willing to give me hard evidence of who it was. I think I offered something like $2k. Nobody ever came forward. I'd have loved to sue him for libel, as many of the things he said were objectively false. The statute of limitations ran out years ago, unfortunately.

I'll end with this, while you continue to munch on your Sbarros while sitting on your toilet to piss, thinking yourself qualified to judge the actions of people who actually put their time and their reputation where their mouth was, unlike you:

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” - President Theodore Roosevelt
 

nc1982

Well-Known Member
The depositions and thousands of pages of documents (including my personal emails) are on the public docket. You're welcome to read through it all if you'd like.

(This is your regularly scheduled reminder to never put anything in an email that you wouldn't want shown to the world on a courtroom TV screen or in a public docket on the internet)



Yes.



No, it reads like a bunch of people with very different opinions on what is best for the pilots fighting like hell to do what they think is best. The people who recalled me were mostly brand new reps with little experience in any union work at all who simply didn't know what they were doing. But they were doing the best they could with their little experience, and they were doing what they believed was right. Even the guy who led the effort (who did have a decent amount of experience) was doing what he felt was right. He and I bitterly disagreed about just about everything. But we both were fighting for our convictions (and now we get along just fine).

It's very easy for someone like you to sit behind your keyboard, or behind a lawyer, and hurl accusations and slander people. It's a much different world to have to actually make tough decisions that impact the lives of tens of thousands of people in a profound way. You have no idea what it's like to lose sleep because you wonder whether you're going to be the one responsible for putting people out of work because you can't be entirely sure if your strategy is the right one, even though you believe that it is.



Because lessons are learned after every major event, especially mergers. It's always a continual process to fine-tune policies to cover every conceivable aspect. And just like the military is always fighting the last war, ALPA is always fighting the last negotiation or merger. We can't see into the future and know what we need to do to prevent problems yet to come. All we can do is learn from the past and try to make the policies better with each passing event.



I offered a cash reward to anyone willing to give me hard evidence of who it was. I think I offered something like $2k. Nobody ever came forward. I'd have loved to sue him for libel, as many of the things he said were objectively false. The statute of limitations ran out years ago, unfortunately.

I'll end with this, while you continue to munch on your Sbarros while sitting on your toilet to piss, thinking yourself qualified to judge the actions of people who actually put their time and their reputation where their mouth was, unlike you:

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” - President Theodore Roosevelt
And then @Cherokee_Cruiser, he hit the other cheek.
 

hill country

Well-Known Member
Well, almost a full page into the direction this thread has turned, and not one single mushroom stamp reference/meme. 2020 continues to disappoint.
 
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