FAR question: PIC time

9

92128

New Member
I have a question that I can't seem to find the answer to. I am trying to figure out if a student pilot can count dual-flight training time in ASEL as PIC time. 61.31(d)(2) from the 2009 FARS seemed to touch on this point but now it is gone. All it says now is:

(2) Have received training required by this part that is appropriate to the pilot certification level, aircraft category, class, and type rating (if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to be flown, and have received an endorsement for solo flight in that aircraft from an authorized instructor.

I know that while on solo flights, the properly endorsed student pilot would be PIC. But what about during dual flight training? Would the student pilot receive PIC for that time also, as long as he/she is endorsed for solo flight?

Thanks
 
92128 said:
I am trying to figure out if a student pilot can count dual-flight training time in ASEL as PIC time. 61.31
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No, you may not. Read 61.51(e). You must be a private pilot, rated, a word you should learn the definition of, in the aircraft to log PIC.
 
Funny thing. As I read on, I came upon 61.51 (e), like you mentioned. 61.51 (e)(4) never mentions "rated" however. It just stipulates that the student must be sole occupant, with current solo flight endorsements, and undergoing training for certificate or rating. 61.51(e)(1) mentions "rated" but doesn't refer to student pilots.

The basis for my original question was "as a CFI, would you need to have a medical certificate when flying with a student pilot?" In other words, would the instructor always be acting as PIC or a required flight crew member while giving flight training to a student pilot? It looks like the answer is yes.
 
92128 said:
The basis for my original question was "as a CFI, would you need to have a medical certificate when flying with a student pilot?"
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If the other pilot meets the requirements of 61.3, then the CFI does not need a medical certificate.
 
92128 said:
Funny thing. As I read on, I came upon 61.51 (e), like you mentioned. 61.51 (e)(4) never mentions "rated" however.
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That's because there are no ratings on a student pilot certificate.

Important when trying to answer these questions: shdw points to 61.51 for a reason. Your inital question was whether the student pilot may count certain time as PIC time. The answer to the question of how to count flight time always starts at 61.51. Starting with 61.31 to answer that type of question is always a mistake since 61.31 deals with qualifications to =act= as PIC which is more often than not irrelevant to the question of how to log the time (I'm even willing to risk saying "always" on those last two sentences).
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
That's because there are no ratings on a student pilot certificate.

Important when trying to answer these questions: shdw points to 61.51 for a reason. Your inital question was whether the student pilot may count certain time as PIC time. The answer to the question of how to count flight time always starts at 61.51. Starting with 61.31 to answer that type of question is always a mistake since 61.31 deals with qualifications to =act= as PIC which is more often than not irrelevant to the question of how to log the time (I'm even willing to risk saying "always" on those last two sentences).
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So if you can ACT as PIC, why wouldn't you be able to LOG the time as PIC?
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Just because it's a student pilot doesn't mean that the CFI has to have a medical certificate, if that's what you were trying to get at.
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Only if it is a glider or LSA. Otherwise the CFI definitely has to hold a valid medical. It only needs to be a third class medical, but he or she does have to hold one.
 
92128 said:
So if you can ACT as PIC, why wouldn't you be able to LOG the time as PIC?
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There are circumstances where you ACT PIC but can't log it.

But yeah, student pilot dual = no PIC.

To log PIC, you need at least a certificate in category/class/type, or be the sole occupant.
 
Guy said:
Only if it is a glider or LSA. Otherwise the CFI definitely has to hold a valid medical. It only needs to be a third class medical, but he or she does have to hold one.
Click to expand...

Correct about a glider or LSA, but otherwise incorrect. As long as somebody in the plane can act as PIC, the CFI doesn't have to have a medical. So, if you've got a commercial student, who already has a complex endorsement on their private single engine land ticket, a CFI wouldn't have to have a medical in order to do instruction for the commercial.
 
KSCessnaDriver said:
Correct about a glider or LSA, but otherwise incorrect. As long as somebody in the plane can act as PIC, the CFI doesn't have to have a medical. So, if you've got a commercial student, who already has a complex endorsement on their private single engine land ticket, a CFI wouldn't have to have a medical in order to do instruction for the commercial.
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You wrote "student pilot", which implies someone operating on a student certificate.
 
Guy said:
You wrote "student pilot", which implies someone operating on a student certificate.
Click to expand...

Ok, in such a case, yes, I'd agree. Lots of people around here just say student, when they are learning something. Regardless, we've got this situation explained well, so hopefully its understood by everyone.
 
92128 said:
So if you can ACT as PIC, why wouldn't you be able to LOG the time as PIC?
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Because, even if acting as PIC, there might not be a 61.51 box you fit into. That's the point.

Example: two pilots flying on an IFR flight plan. One instrument rated one not. The VFR-only pilot is doing the flying.

The VFR pilot logs PIC as sole manipulator of an aircraft the pilot is rated for. But you won't find anything in 61.51 that permits the instrument-rated pilot (who is the only one on board authorized to act as PIC) to log anything.
 
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