FAR 61.51-e-iv Loggin PIC

troopernflight

troopernflight

Well-Known Member
I was told that this section is new and allows 2 pilots to log PIC at the same time. It looks like as long as the captain is an ATP or MEI, and you are flying right seat that you can log this as PIC (as long as you are rated for category/class). That's if you are doing an "approved pilot in command training program". Not sure what they are requiring specifically on that. Does anyone have any knowledge on what this pilot in command training program needs to consist of to be legit?

See section in bold:


(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;
(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;
(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or
(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided—
(A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;
(B) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation—
( 1 ) Preflight preparation;
( 2 ) Preflight procedures;
( 3 ) Takeoff and departure;
( 4 ) In-flight maneuvers;
( 5 ) Instrument procedures;
( 6 ) Landings and approaches to landings;
( 7 ) Normal and abnormal procedures;
( 8 ) Emergency procedures; and
( 9 ) Postflight procedures;
(C) The supervising pilot in command holds—
( 1 ) A commercial pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate, and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; or
( 2 ) An airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required; and
(D) The supervising pilot in command logs the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook, certifies the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook and attests to that certification with his or her signature, and flight instructor certificate number.
 
Here's FAA's justification for the new regulation, taken right from the Final Rule. I'm not sure if it directly answers your question, but here's a little background:


Revised § 61.51(e)(1)(iv) will allow a pilot performing the duties of a pilot in command (PIC) while under the supervision of a qualified PIC to log PIC flight time. The FAA is making this revision to provide another way for
commercial pilot certificate or airline transport pilot certificate holders to log PIC flight time. The pilot performing the duties of a PIC will be required to hold a
commercial pilot certificate or airline transport pilot certificate with the aircraft rating appropriate to the
category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate. The pilot must be under the supervision
of an appropriately qualified PIC.

Additionally, the pilot who is performing PIC duties is required to undergo an approved PIC training program consisting of ground and flight training on the following areas of operation: pre-flight preparation, preflight procedures, takeoff and departure phase, in-flight maneuvers, instrument procedures, landings and approaches to landings, normal and abnormal procedures, emergency procedures, and post-flight procedures.

The supervising PIC will be required to hold either a commercial pilot certificate or ATP certificate, and flight instructor certificate. In addition, the supervising PIC must hold the appropriate aircraft rating (i.e., category, class, and type of aircraft being flown, if a class or type rating is required). The supervising PIC must log the PIC training given in the pilot’s logbook, certify having given the PIC training in the pilot’s logbook, and attest to that certification with his/her signature, flight instructor certificate number, and expiration date, or ATP certificate number, as appropriate. This revision parallels and further clarifies the provisions in revised § 61.129 and existing §§ 61.31(d), 61.159(a)(4), 61.161(a)(3), and 61.163(a)(3) for PIC aeronautical experience.

AOPA supported the concept, but believed the proposed rule was unclear and would lead to confusion. AOPA
recommended rewriting the proposed regulatory text to include a matrix text showing conditions under which a pilot
may log time as PIC. Four commenters supported the proposed provisions clarifying logging of PIC flight time by
pilots acting as PIC under supervision. One commenter questioned whether the proposed provisions are targeted toward pilots working toward advanced certificates, ratings, or authorizations after receiving their commercial pilot​

certificates. Four commenters asserted the proposed provisions are unnecessary, as pilots acting as PIC under supervision are already permitted to log PIC flight time under other sections of the regulations. The Greater St. Louis Flight Instructor Association objected to the proposed provisions arguing there is a trend toward pilots having inadequate true solo experience; it believes the proposed rule would result in pilots building time without accruing real experience. One commenter opposed application of the proposed provision other than in operations or aircraft requiring a second in command (SIC) (e.g., operation of light single engine airplanes under part 91). The commenter did not consider a required safety pilot to be an SIC. One commenter objected to requiring endorsement of the acting PIC’s logbook by the supervising PIC. The commenter asserted that the training contemplated by the proposed rule is recorded in training records, not logbooks. One commenter recommended pilots logging PIC flight time under supervision also be required to log dual instruction time. This rule is designed to allow operators to train new hires to eventually become PICs.

The rule was initially petitioned for by Saudi Aramco. Saudi Aramco wanted permission to allow new hires’ training in their Bell 214 helicopter to eventually become PICs in the company and allow logging PIC flight time while under the supervision of more experienced and senior PICs. This rule does require pilots to hold at least a commercial pilot certificate and requires those performing supervising PIC duties must hold either a commercial pilot certificate or airline transport pilot certificate, and flight instructor certificate with the appropriate category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate.

A pilot may log PIC flight time when performing the duties of the PIC while under the supervision of the § 1.1 PIC.
The FAA believes the rule is abundantly clear that a person may log PIC flight time when performing the duties of the
PIC while under the supervision of the PIC, provided both the person who is performing the duties of the PIC and the
supervising PIC meet the requirements of the rule.

After consideration of all the comments received, the FAA is
adopting the revision as proposed in the NPRM.​
 
Well, then, who needs a MCPL? We've already got one through the backdoor! Yay! I look forward to all the smoking holes this one will dig.

You're PIC if you sign for it. I, for one, will never take someone seriously who is "PIC" by virtue of playing one on TV.
 
Unless i'm reading this wrong it sounds like a person could conceivebly log multi-engine PIC without ever holding a multi-engine rating?? Do i have that right??? If that is the case that sounds like a bad idea.
 
Boris Badenov said:
Well, then, who needs a MCPL? We've already got one through the backdoor! Yay! I look forward to all the smoking holes this one will dig.

You're PIC if you sign for it. I, for one, will never take someone seriously who is "PIC" by virtue of playing one on TV.
Click to expand...

Agreed.
 
bksslc said:
Unless i'm reading this wrong it sounds like a person could conceivebly log multi-engine PIC without ever holding a multi-engine rating?? Do i have that right??? If that is the case that sounds like a bad idea.
Click to expand...

I would say no, because:

(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided—
(A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate

So you'd need a CMEL to log PIC in this manner in a multi.

This isn't really like an MPL either, since you'd need to have the regular Commercial certificate first - the whole point of the MPL (and the source of the problem that I have with it) is that you aren't qualified to fly an aircraft on your own.

Unless I'm reading this wrong, this really isn't any different in principle from allowing a PPL holder to log PIC while getting instruction.
 
I'm a bit lost on the part where the babysitting PIC must sign your logbook, but doesn't have to mark it dual received....
 
Patrick said:
I'm a bit lost on the part where the babysitting PIC must sign your logbook, but doesn't have to mark it dual received....
Click to expand...
Where do you see that? I see

==============================
...certifies the pilot in command training in the pilot's logbook (the reg)
==============================

and

==============================
The supervising PIC must log the PIC training given in the pilot’s logbook... (the explanatory material from the Final Rule)
==============================
 
germb747 said:
Me too. If I were the one making the rules, there would be one and only one circumstance in which you could log PIC time. You'd have to be, well, the PIC!
Click to expand...
You'd be bucking a lot of hirstory and policy to get there.

Good thing you're not making the rules. I think a lot of training costs pilots enough without talking away time that is used to meet the requirements for FAA certificates and ratings. (Although maybe, if you were making the rules, you'd also come up with the cash to pay for its consequences to pilots - nah, people who like to make up rules for others to follow never like to pay for them).
 
I hope the airlines don't start using this the next time they can't find anyone to hire. Having 1200 hrs PIC for your ICAO ATP was one of the few things keeping mostly experienced captains in the left seat, since you ended up needing about 2000hrs SIC if you were low time.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
You'd be bucking a lot of hirstory and policy to get there.

Good thing you're not making the rules. I think a lot of training costs pilots enough without talking away time that is used to meet the requirements for FAA certificates and ratings. (Although maybe, if you were making the rules, you'd also come up with the cash to pay for its consequences to pilots - nah, people who like to make up rules for others to follow never like to pay for them).
Click to expand...

I'd be curious to read up on some of that history and policy, seriously. Maybe there's a rationale to the policy which I fail to understand--wouldn't be the first time.

But if I got to make all the rules, I'd simply call "PIC time" something else. The Air Force calls it "primary" time, meaning you're simply the pilot flying the aircraft. 'Primary' time has nothing to do with being in command of the aircraft, and neither does 'PIC time' per 61.51. All references to 'PIC time' in the prerequsites for the various certificates and ratings would be changed to 'primary' time. Thus, in effect, this wouldn't cost anyone another dime; we're just playing with semantics. Pilot In Command time would mean what it says, that you're the Pilot In Command.

I just think it'd cut down on the confusion. Why should we call it PIC time if it has nothing to do with being the PIC? But you're right, it's a good thing I don't get to make all the rules, because then we'd live in a dictatorship. :D
 
germb747 said:
I'd be curious to read up on some of that history and policy, seriously.
Click to expand...
You're probably right that, if they changed the term, it would minimize the confusions about "PIC" meaning two completely different and usually unrelated things.

This is a bit of spit and bubble gum pasting together but my take is that when it comes to logging PIC, the FAA is interested in only one thing - the time that the FAA decided is to be used to meet certain qualifications for certificates and ratings. My guess is that at some point the FAA (and the CAA before it) decided that time handling the controls of an airplane was valuable for the purpose of meeting the qualifications for advanced certificates and ratings.

There are references to this as early as the 1929 (although then combined with actually being in command of the aircraft).

The 1940s finds the use of "solo" time toward advanced certificate and ratings, "solo" then being defined as

==============================
20.673 Logging of pilot flight time.

***

(b) The holder of a pilot certificate, other than a student pilot certificate, may log as solo flight time that portion of any flight during which he is the sole manipulator of the controls: Provided, That he may log as solo flight time only 50 percent of any flight time during which a certificated instructor or a certificated airline transport pilot is in the aircraft serving as an instructor for the purpose of reviewing or increasing such pilot's skill;
==============================

Change "solo" to "PIC" in the 1950s and you pretty much have the backdrop to the current rule.
 
When I first started flying, I don't think you could even log solo time as PIC time. IIRC, that came about as "supervised PIC" in the mid-late 90s.
 
;) ...it's aaall about the money. The FAA is a gov. entity influenced by lobbyists who resist training and operating costs.

The military, which formed the basic concept of measuring flight time as an evaluation tool for the purpose of maint. inspections and pilot proficiency, before the CAA/FAA ever existed, still uses PIC to mean actual PIC, and flight time is actual take-off to actual landing, not including taxi and run-up time.

That is what any person in the street (jury of my peers) would assume those terms to mean.

Only certain smartly educated persons, such as FAA-Certified Flight Instructors would know, with authority, that the FAA has ruled these terms to mean something different.

Isn't it great that we can access this special knowledge on the internet?;)
 
nosehair said:
That is what any person in the street (jury of my peers) would assume those terms to mean.
Click to expand...
Gosh I sure hope you don't mean to measure aviation based on the proverbial "man on the street." You're referring to those who think pilots are all crazy, GA a danger to our nation, and would sooner see no one be able to act or log PIC by any definition.

No thanks. I'm more than happy to have "terms of art" in aviation.
 
nosehair said:
The military, which formed the basic concept of measuring flight time as an evaluation tool for the purpose of maint. inspections and pilot proficiency, before the CAA/FAA ever existed, still uses PIC to mean actual PIC, and flight time is actual take-off to actual landing, not including taxi and run-up time.
Click to expand...



You know, actually I can't find anywhere in my official military flight records where it shows whether or not I was the PIC ('A code') on a given flight. All it shows is "FP" as my crew position before I upgraded to aircraft commander, and "MP" for all the time after. All my time now counts as "MP", regardless of whether I'm the PIC or not. The only person who is keeping track of how much time I really have in command is me, but there's really no requirement for me to do so.
 
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