FAR 117 and YOU!

Richman

Richman

JC’s Resident Curmudgeon
Ok Kids....

We're almost two years into FAR 117, so the question de jour:

Do you feel more rested now, or under the old 121 rules? Please state what kind of flying you do for reference...

If you are in the pooped category, what would you change that would help (shorter duty days, weekly block hour limits, longer rest requirements, etc).

Richman
 
I came from the 135 world, and have only been under 117 for about a year.

I like it, but I cant really compare it to the old style.
 
I'm new to the airlines so I can't speak on comparison to old rest rules personally, but when I'm talking to Captains about it, unanimously they're happy about it most specifically not being forced into reduced rest overnights after a long 5 leg day just to wake up and do another 5 or 6 legs.

Me personally, 10 hours off is something I appreciate from
117.
 
Not doing 5 legs, 4 legs, 5 legs- for a 3-day helps in rest. It's now 3-legs, 4 legs, 3 legs. Trips are easier, but it's an extra trip per month for the average joe. 4 and 5 day trips completely depends on aircraft and stage length. 6-leg days occur, as do 2 leg days.

I can tell you, affirmatively, that overall PRODUCTIVITY, has been reduced about :30 mins per duty period due to 117 in a regional environment overall in the pairings. That's 2-3 days off in a month for the same work, but more rested while doing it.

So you are more rested, but work more days. Is that tiring or not? That's the question you are still asking.
 
If you're not better rested under 117, you're not at a regional.

I've had to argue with scheduling about whether the 3 hours it took the van to get to the airport was "transportation local in nature," at 4:00 a.m., with scheduling telling me that it's perfectly acceptable to sleep for 4 hours and then work for 16. I informed them that I would be at the airport exactly 8 hours after I hung up on them, which I did promptly.

I've also slept in the crew room after being on duty for 24 hours, to be told that I was being put on min rest starting at 8:00 a.m., so I could work a flight that night. That's AFTER doing a diversion, finally making it into the hub at midnight, and not being given a hotel until 8:00 a.m.

EVERYTHING is better under part 117. NOTHING is worse.
 
@Richman - definitely more rested.

juxtapilot said:
I feel so much more rested now than I did prior to 117. Heck, even a lot of the CDO's have more sleep opportunity than the old rules.
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Ours don't, but that's because, well, ours. (note: pilots in SLC do not suffer this problem, but the remainder of us in the system certainly do)

Also, our pairing efficiency took a hit that we're still recovering from.
Snuggle said:
What I love is the 10 hours rest with 8 hours sleep opportunity. This is gold.

What I don't like is that Duty time for reserves can be waaaay too long.

Overall it's still an imporvement from the old rules. Much less fatiguing.
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I tell everyone - as a guy on our RSV committee - that notwithstanding the pages of rules we have about their legality and the nature of how extensions are handled (barf) at this airline, if you do not feel like you can fly the assignment without being fatigued, then you should not accept the assignment, legal or otherwise.
 
Snuggle said:
What I love is the 10 hours rest with 8 hours sleep opportunity. This is gold.

What I don't like is that Duty time for reserves can be waaaay too long.

Overall it's still an imporvement from the old rules. Much less fatiguing.
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This. Determining legality can get kind of convoluted in certain cases. With that said I LOVE the fact that a 10 hour overnight is what i now consider a short overnight. There is NO WAY that an 8 hour overnight should have ever been legal or considered restful.
 
Snuggle said:
What I love is the 10 hours rest with 8 hours sleep opportunity. This is gold.

What I don't like is that Duty time for reserves can be waaaay too long.

Overall it's still an imporvement from the old rules. Much less fatiguing.
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I worked at AWAC and we had this in our contract. It was 8 hours minimum behind the door rest no matter what. Even with that, I felt fairly fatigued when having to do it.

I left the month it went into effect so I never really saw the ramifications of it. The only thing I don't like is the 9 hour flight time hard time. It should've been what the 8 hours was before, legal to start legal to finish. The flight time isn't really what causes fatigue it's the duty day.

I will say flying at my company now I feel well rested except for red-eyes and all-nighters. Those should've been completely made illegal by 117. They are by far the most unsafe flying I have ever done from a fatigue standpoint.
 
That 9 hour flight time thing is a killer.

It was supposed to be for high-time turns, but technically I'm getting multiple leg ball busters with short turn times.

Last time I was domestic, it was pre-117 MD-88. Back domestic and it feels like I'm working way harder.
 
I think the one thing 117 didn't address is body clock flipping.

I absolutely hate a typical 4 day trip - show at 0700 - two legs into the overnight by 1400. 28hrs rest, show at 2100, two legs to the overnight by 0700, then 11 hours rest, show at 1830 one leg back to base done by 2200.

4 day trip, 5 legs (2-2-1), 2 layovers, 1 red-eye, and body clock AFU for 2-3 days afterwards - totally 117 legal though.
 
woodreau said:
I think the one thing 117 didn't address is body clock flipping.

I absolutely hate a typical 4 day trip - show at 0700 - two legs into the overnight by 1400. 28hrs rest, show at 2100, two legs to the overnight by 0700, then 11 hours rest, show at 1830 one leg back to base done by 2200.

4 day trip, 5 legs (2-2-1), 2 layovers, 1 red-eye, and body clock AFU for 2-3 days afterwards - totally 117 legal though.
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Definitely agree with this.. It's not worse than it was prior to 117, but it certainly didn't improve anything.
 
I came from 135 so its impossible to compare. But let me put it this way, when I was hired and switched from 135 to 121, I was timed out for the previous 12 months. I feel much more rested.
 
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