Failed Checkride

Fly_Unity

Fly_Unity

Well-Known Member
Just had a student bust a checkride for the Private pilot Rating. First time I had a bust in 2 years and he was one of the better students I had. He was an older guy who studied his homework and was easy to teach.

It was an 8 hour day for him, a 4.8 hour Oral, and a 3.4 hour flight. It was my first time using this examiner and having an 5 hour oral and going directly to a flight with no food or break will make any nervous student freeze up, he flew under the hood for 25 minutes, then did lost procedures found himself but just couldn't find what heading he had to go for his diversion. Examiner said the student did above average on everything except he just froze up on the diversion. Student said examiner was just yelling at him the whole time and he didnt know what the examiner wanted. (Examiner was Military his whole life who just recently became a DE for the civilian side)

I was peeved about the long Oral. Student said he was so exhausted before the flight he didnt think it would go well.

I asked the examiner why the long Oral, and he replied that the national average for a private pilot Oral is 4.5 hours. Is this correct? I never had one so long for my private students before. How long has your checkrides been going for your students?
 
I'd chat with some other students who have gone with that examiner. If that experience is common (the yelling) then stop using him. There's no reason to line a bad DPE's wallet with your student's cash when there are so many out there.
 
Fly_Unity said:
I asked the examiner why the long Oral, and he replied that the national average for a private pilot Oral is 4.5 hours. Is this correct? I never had one so long for my private students before. How long has your checkrides been going for your students?
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I don't think my private oral was more than an hour. The flight was 1.3. That was 10 years ago, but I don't think much has really changed.
 
Clocks said:
I'd chat with some other students who have gone with that examiner. If that experience is common (the yelling) then stop using him. There's no reason to line a bad DPE's wallet with your student's cash when there are so many out there.
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Hes a new examiner who just got qualified to do this a few months ago and I only know of one other student who went with this guy who said he would never go with him again. He passed though.

He the closest examiner in Wyoming. Id would have to send all my students to MT if I choose to use a different examiner.
 
First let me say sorry for the bust. I had my first student bust earlier this year and it hurts. It was an easy fix and he passed the second time. He was just so nervous. I have never had a private pilot oral last that long. I would say 1.5 to 2.0 is the average. It should be clear at the point if the applicant has the required knowledge to operate as a private pilot.

As far as the yelling, I don't believe yelling is appropriate in the cockpit. If the examiner thought he had to yell at your student than maybe he should have discontinued the flight. Have you used this examiner before?
 
tgrayson said:
Consider calling the FSDO and speaking to the examiner's POI. Make sure you have your facts straight.
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:yeahthat: An 8 hour PPL ride is just nuts. It is almost cruel without giving at least 30 minutes for some food. I would really like to know where he got the national average being 4.5 hours. I think he misread, that sounds like it could be an average for the whole ride.
 
Yeah, for the PPL I would say that 2 hours on the ground and slightly less than 2 hours in the air is more that sufficient and is much closer to the norm. Most likely either the DE made up the 4.5 hour ground average stat because he felt threatened, or he misheard someone say 4.5 hours for the entire checkride. If the guy is new it is very possible that he is still "learning" to give a decent checkride and not sure what needs to be asked to verify the applicant is qualified.
 
I found the below link on the FAA's website. I was looking for more -tabled- data like you can get about airmen certificates issued.

At the conclusion of my CFI ride the inspector entered into IACRA the duration of the oral and flight portions of the exam. I'm not sure if that data is available anywhere.

This is from 2007 and it's an examiner / new private pilot survey.

Here is the link:

http://www.faa.gov/library/reports/medical/oamtechreports/2000s/media/200717.pdf

Plan of Action and Time to Administer Exams
When asked about their testing practices, nearly 99%
of DPEs reported using a written plan of action when
conducting a practical test. Of the DPEs who had used
a written action plan, most indicated using variations of
that plan when testing both first-time and re-test P-ASEL
applicants (87% and 80%, respectively). For first-time
P-ASEL applicants, 66% of DPEs spent between 1½ to
2½ hours administering the oral portion of the practical
test and 87% spent 1 to 2 hours administering the flight
portion of the test.
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I would bet almost all of the remaining 34% / 13% were less than their respective times above.
 
Fly_Unity said:
It was an 8 hour day for him, a 4.8 hour Oral, and a 3.4 hour flight.
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A 5 HOUR ORAL?!? Dude, never use this guy again, he's a head case! My longest oral was my CFI oral, and that was only 3.5 hours, and these checkride flights only go on for 2 maybe 2.5 hours tops, and there SHOULD be a break in between, otherwise the student is being set up to fail.

Ask me, that examiner is an incompetent fool who thinks his standards and averages are the only ones that matter and needs to seriously be reexamined, especially if he did this knowingly. Any basic CFI would know that his methods of examination were wrong and would immediately seek a second opinion.

Truly, just from the test as you have described it thus far, this guy is an inexcusable jerk who was out for blood at the get go.
 
saria19 said:
A 5 HOUR ORAL?!? Dude, never use this guy again, he's a head case! My longest oral was my CFI oral, and that was only 3.5 hours, and these checkride flights only go on for 2 maybe 2.5 hours tops, and there SHOULD be a break in between, otherwise the student is being set up to fail.
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Agree. 5 hour oral? What did he have to do, recite the FAR/AIM verbatim from cover to cover? Build a 172 from scratch? Wow......total headcase.

Ask me, that examiner is an incompetent fool who thinks his standards and averages are the only ones that matter and needs to seriously be reexamined, especially if he did this knowingly. Any basic CFI would know that his methods of examination were wrong and would immediately seek a second opinion.

Truly, just from the test as you have described it thus far, this guy is an inexcusable jerk who was out for blood at the get go.
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Agree x 2. Too many examiners are so bent on finding something wrong or playing "stump the dummy," or worse, trying to prove to examinee how smart they are; that they FAIL at being big picture. They fail to take an overall look at the person they're examining, instead looking for every nitnoid BS thing they can downgrade on. When I was an examiner, we were always told "never instruct on a checkride!" Well why the heck not? Obviously its not an instructional ride in the classic sense, but a person should still learn
something from it more than just whether they passed/failed; so I always instructed something if the situation needed it. And if a guy wasn't perfect on something or botched something up on the flight, reset and do it again. Show me that you can mess something up, then rebound and get it right....especially if you know you're messing up and want to reset; that's good judgement. That's what I want to see, not "first strike and you're out". Same with oral...if someone is stumped on something, there's nothing wrong with a rephrase/hint, etc. I don't expect someone to be an encyclopedia. I'm sure not.

5 hour oral. For a freaking PPL! In one hour or so, it should be clear that the examinee is passed or not. That examiner needs to be added to the list of MikeD ass kickings......esp being ex military. Probably an OGV (stan-eval) guy his whole career.
 
I have to agree with everyone above. 5 hour oral is crazy for a private pilot, and if the flight needs a gas stop then that is crazy also. Did they do a real cross-country and fly all the way to the diversion or something?
 
Yea, that kind of an evaluation is over the top for a private pilot, for sure. The only checkride I had like that was my navigation checkride in Air Force pilot training--which was designed to be a PITA checkride. Of course, I didn't get to pick my evaluator either.

Had you heard anything about this guy before? Why did you use him in the first place? Most DPEs have a "reputation" of one kind or another, or is he brand new? Does he even realize that you can combine tasks, etc, for a more efficient checkride.

You can tell within the first 5 minutes of an oral whether or not somebody knows what they're talking about; no reason it can't be covered in about an hour. Hell, even my CFI checkride was maybe 3.5-4.0 hours (oral and flight combined).

Wouldn't use this guy again.
 
Fly_Unity said:
Just had a student bust a checkride for the Private pilot Rating. First time I had a bust in 2 years and he was one of the better students I had. He was an older guy who studied his homework and was easy to teach.

It was an 8 hour day for him, a 4.8 hour Oral, and a 3.4 hour flight. It was my first time using this examiner and having an 5 hour oral and going directly to a flight with no food or break will make any nervous student freeze up, he flew under the hood for 25 minutes, then did lost procedures found himself but just couldn't find what heading he had to go for his diversion. Examiner said the student did above average on everything except he just froze up on the diversion. Student said examiner was just yelling at him the whole time and he didnt know what the examiner wanted. (Examiner was Military his whole life who just recently became a DE for the civilian side)

I was peeved about the long Oral. Student said he was so exhausted before the flight he didnt think it would go well.

I asked the examiner why the long Oral, and he replied that the national average for a private pilot Oral is 4.5 hours. Is this correct? I never had one so long for my private students before. How long has your checkrides been going for your students?
Click to expand...
I'm not a CFI, but I just had my PPL checkride 2 weeks ago. The oral was like 1.0 and the flight was 1.7 and it was long and tiring. (the 1.0 for the oral doesn't count the time when he was filling out forms and stuff).
 
I don't think you should refrain from using an examiner just because he's tough. My private was a cake walk - 45 minute oral, 1.2 hour flight. Everyone wants to have the best pass rate possible, but if it makes your students better pilots - having to fly more precisely and know their material better - then I don't see what the problem is. Just next time make sure your student is 100.0%, instead of 97%.

In many ways I wish I'd had a harder private checkride, because if I'd gone out [like so many other people do] and immediately started doing a ton of solo/xc flying by myself the day after my checkride, I might have gotten myself in trouble before I learned any better. But, if a student goes to the hardest examiner around, studies appropriately, and then passes with flying colors, then they'll have better confidence, better knowledge, and better skills.

It sucks that the student busted, but personally I don't really buy into the policy of sending students to the easiest examiner you can find if it means that the students get away with inferior knowledge and skills.
 
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