FAA reauthorization bill includes Cockpit Video Recorders! 👎

[Boots2Wings]

So, I guess I don’t understand the pushback from the age increase. So would someone explain how this hurts anyone, in very simple terms for my monkey brain. I want to be able to speak intelligently on this during my next transcon redeye after it’s undoubtedly brought up.

My perspective/understanding (for context)…

Push retirement by 2 years…means 2 years longer for upgrades, potentially hiring at certain carriers; but because everyone gets two years more to fly, doesn’t it even out in the long run? If not, wouldn't it eclipse the stagnation period, that as in people who fall on trail end will likely end up with more money from yearly raises/ contract renos? Id understand outrage if it shortened the timeline, but extending it seems to either be a wash, or more likely a boon to all of us.

Personally, at least my side of the equation, given what all you guys faced on the back of 9/11, 08, and the various pay to play, or flying 7 leg days for peanuts at the regional…doesn’t extending the age mean it might be possible to get some return on all those really crappy years? I can’t complain about my career trajectory at all, and hearing all the stories about the dark times, cant help fear more is owed….plus, an FO now day makes decent buck; even at a regional, its not like its forcing a new generation to suffer?

So what am I missing here? Cause it seems like I should be up in arms about this; but I cannot figure out why.

 

[luke3]

Because not everyone wants to work until 65, let alone 67. It will cause stagnation during the years when one is most willing to work and work harder leaving them in a worse off position at the time they were originally planning on punching out. Some will take the hit, replan, or figure something out and still retire when they wanted to. Others will bite the bullet and "take advantage" of the extra 2 years they now have available to recover. 2 years that they were originally planning to spend in retirement with their loved ones.

We're in the best bargaining position in decades to recover from the devaluation that's been happening to this profession in the past 20 years. We shouldn't be doing anything to help solve the pilot shortage at our expense. The airlines created this mess by making it an undesireable career field for many, let them figure out how to fix it. I know the idea didn't come from any pilot group but my point still stands that we should oppose anything that weakens our bargaining position

 

[Skåning]

my point still stands that we should oppose anything that weakens our bargaining position

Agreed, but I’m also having a hard time wrapping my head around why airlines would even want this. They would be giving themselves two more years of the most expensive pilots.

Also, higher likelihood of them medical-ing out and costing them a ton in disability. Imagine being 64 and having an issue, now you can coast out till 67 on long term disability, costing the company serious coin.

 

[dvtpilot]

View: https://youtu.be/8QxIIz1yEsA

 

[alaskadrifter]

Agreed, but I’m also having a hard time wrapping my head around why airlines would even want this. They would be giving themselves two more years of the most expensive pilots.

Also, higher likelihood of them medical-ing out and costing them a ton in disability. Imagine being 64 and having an issue, now you can coast out till 67 on long term disability, costing the company serious coin.

My guess is it’s being pushed by the regionals.

 

[///AMG]

Agreed, but I’m also having a hard time wrapping my head around why airlines would even want this. They would be giving themselves two more years of the most expensive pilots.

Also, higher likelihood of them medical-ing out and costing them a ton in disability. Imagine being 64 and having an issue, now you can coast out till 67 on long term disability, costing the company serious coin.

Completely agree. The Navy has been fighting their own battle along these lines for a number of years now. Similar situation largely. They continue to rob Peter to pay Paul, and the whole house of cards is starting to crumble as they attempt to fill holes in more senior manning with less senior folks. Which has a self sustaining feedback loop of convincing more and more people to quit at the earliest opportunity, as it ends up demoralizing everyone. All to say, they think in terms of short term panic decisions, not long term sustainable solutions.

 

[Skåning]

All to say, they think in terms of short term panic decisions, not long term sustainable solutions.

Wait, are we talking about the Navy or Alaskan? Cus that is a familiar story

 

[BobDDuck]

Agreed, but I’m also having a hard time wrapping my head around why airlines would even want this. They would be giving themselves two more years of the most expensive pilots.

The airlines aren't really pushing for this. They know that all it does it push the problem 2 years down the road and that those two years aren't enough to set up a better pilot training pipeline with the 1500 hour limit still in place.

It's a strange mix of people pushing for it and from what I can tell it is mostly being driven by a few nameless groups. If you look at the verbiage that lawmakers are using, and all the pro social media posts... it's all the same. They all talk about keeping "our most experienced pilots in the cockpits". Which is strange because on the whole, at a certain point on the longevity curve, where everyone has had a lot of exposure to things, experience starts to flatten out, and thinks like cognitive ability, interpersonal skills, and the ability to adapt to change become way more valuable.

 

[derg]

Things I would look at:

How many pilots are 60+ at your airline. Percentage of those 60+ pilots that are on long-term disability Now bring any pilots who retired at 65 but not yet 70, retrain them, retrain everyone below them that are displaced (or pay protect them) what have you actually solved?

Again, providing no answers or opinion (although I do have one! ) but some places to look if you’d like to do your own ‘research’

 

[tcco94]

Most legacies haven’t made public positions on age 67 that I know about. My airline has been quiet. I don’t imagine they want this. Regionals have publicly supported this, for obvious reasons.

 

[chrisreedrules]

Legacy management doesn’t want it unless ICAO also lifts age 65 to 67. Otherwise it’s an absolute nightmare of training, displacements, and bargaining that arguably solves nothing.

It may even be cheaper to just involuntary retire pilots at age 65 and just pay them to 67 than to deal with the alternative.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Things I would look at:

How many pilots are 60+ at your airline. Percentage of those 60+ pilots that are on long-term disability Now bring any pilots who retired at 65 but not yet 70, retrain them, retrain everyone below them that are displaced (or pay protect them) what have you actually solved?

Again, providing no answers or opinion (although I do have one! ) but some places to look if you’d like to do your own ‘research’

Yeah. They're gonna love flying 5 legs a day to the 'burgs and the 'villes, those oldsters.

 

[phill1174]

My guess is it’s being pushed by the regionals.

The only large group I’ve seen in support of this is the RAA. I’m sure there’s more. Everyone has their reasons but 67 is just kicking the can down the road. There’s no way in hell I’d want to work to 67 if I stay at Brown. Some of our most senior folks are bidding “Hot Standby” (essentially ready reserve with caveats) to avoid the lashings that come with a line.
As far as video recording devices go I’d hope that doesn’t come to fruition. I cringe when I see folks recording in the flight deck. The very thing pilots have been trying to keep out is being brought in for a few likes. There’s better way to get chicks than showing them the river visual.

 

[DE727UPS]

I did RFD, DFW, and PHL hots my last 4 years and brown and I still couldn't justify staying once I was entitled to a full pension. Out at 60.

 

[MikeD]

I cringe when I see folks recording in the flight deck. The very thing pilots have been trying to keep out is being brought in for a few likes. There’s better way to get chicks than showing them the river visual.

I’ve never understood these people, and I’ve run into a few. These people who absolutely just MUST have their GoPro or whatever recording device on the dash to record the flight.

It’s like, you’re not headed out on a flak suppression mission to hit AAA gun sites near the hottest parts of Haiphong. You’re on a mundane, boring-ass (as it should be) 121 airline flight. There’s literally nothing interesting in o record that is some “must see!!”, or anything or value to be remembered down the road.

 

[MikeD]

I did RFD, DFW, and PHL hots my last 4 years and brown and I still couldn't justify staying once I was entitled to a full pension. Out at 60.

But now you might be able to go back!

 

[ppragman]

I'm going to be a "witch in church" here, but I think we should have cameras as long as their treated just like the CVR stuff, things are de-identified, and not available to the management types. From a "let's get better at aviation thing" alone it could be extremely valuable. Granted, I don't have a dog in this fight anymore, but I'm "pro-data" as long as that data isn't being used unjustly.

If you fly with a CVR you are already being surveilled, so think of the additional safety benefits that adds. FOQA could start using ML and gesture recognition to figure out what checklists are "inefficient" or "commonly missed" just from context. There are a lot of benefits.

I only had one job where we had a camera in the cockpit, and most of the dudes immediately "bumped it with their heads when getting in" to point it up at the overhead. I don't know, I don't really see that as "fighting the good fight." As long as it's not being used to punish guys and is compartmentalized from management somehow, I think it would be a great assistive technology.

What, are you guys getting naked up front? Or drawing dicks on your scratch paper all day? And even if you were, if it was being managed by people who were forbidden from punishing you... why should it matter?

Edit for clarity, it appears that the thread is all about age 67 now, which "• that" that's dumb.

 

[🦈💜]

If you fly with a CVR you are already being surveilled, so think of the additional safety benefits that adds. FOQA could start using ML and gesture recognition to figure out what checklists are "inefficient" or "commonly missed" just from context. There are a lot of benefits.

I only had one job where we had a camera in the cockpit, and most of the dudes immediately "bumped it with their heads when getting in" to point it up at the overhead. I don't know, I don't really see that as "fighting the good fight." As long as it's not being used to punish guys and is compartmentalized from management somehow, I think it would be a great assistive technology.

What, are you guys getting naked up front? Or drawing dicks on your scratch paper all day? And even if you were, if it was being managed by people who were forbidden from punishing you... why should it matter?

Edit for clarity, it appears that the thread is all about age 67 now, which "• that" that's dumb.

I don't want a camera pointed at me while I work. It's invasive. There are no "safety benefits" that don't have better mechanisms.

Are you familiar with the concept of panopticon, and why it is considered inhumane? This is that.

And frankly, it's just voyeuristic.

 

[ASpilot2be]

I'm going to be a "witch in church" here, but I think we should have cameras as long as their treated just like the CVR stuff, things are de-identified, and not available to the management types. From a "let's get better at aviation thing" alone it could be extremely valuable. Granted, I don't have a dog in this fight anymore, but I'm "pro-data" as long as that data isn't being used unjustly.

If you fly with a CVR you are already being surveilled, so think of the additional safety benefits that adds. FOQA could start using ML and gesture recognition to figure out what checklists are "inefficient" or "commonly missed" just from context. There are a lot of benefits.

I only had one job where we had a camera in the cockpit, and most of the dudes immediately "bumped it with their heads when getting in" to point it up at the overhead. I don't know, I don't really see that as "fighting the good fight." As long as it's not being used to punish guys and is compartmentalized from management somehow, I think it would be a great assistive technology.

What, are you guys getting naked up front? Or drawing dicks on your scratch paper all day? And even if you were, if it was being managed by people who were forbidden from punishing you... why should it matter?

Edit for clarity, it appears that the thread is all about age 67 now, which "• that" that's dumb.

My big thing is video can be turned into click bait and do more damage to the pilots families than with a CVR. Right now only interested people read CVRs. But when video gets shared, everybody will see it and judge.

I wouldn't mind cameras on the airplane to feed the CVR, but not in the flightdeck.

 

[derg]

The only large group I’ve seen in support of this is the RAA. I’m sure there’s more. Everyone has their reasons but 67 is just kicking the can down the road. There’s no way in hell I’d want to work to 67 if I stay at Brown. Some of our most senior folks are bidding “Hot Standby” (essentially ready reserve with caveats) to avoid the lashings that come with a line.
As far as video recording devices go I’d hope that doesn’t come to fruition. I cringe when I see folks recording in the flight deck. The very thing pilots have been trying to keep out is being brought in for a few likes. There’s better way to get chicks than showing them the river visual.

All of the social media posts, phone photos/videos, texts especially after a wreck when they recover mobile devices has to be a treasure-trove of information.

We just had some relatively vague Flight Safety Bulletin about "notable and highly visible events (…) in the National Airspace System" that directs compliance with checklists, procedures and compliance with the PED rules...