F-35 loses dogfight to Mig-21 and F-16

Let me guess. Like the F-4 it won't need to dog fight. It only needs its missiles and advanced acquisition systems. Oh... wait...
 
Sprey doesn't have any actual knowledge of the capabilities of the actual airplane outside of what he's deriving from unclassified sources. Thus, he doesn't have an E-M diagram to be able to state that a MiG-21 would "hopelessly whip" the Lightning.

I'm not a fan of the Lightning for a couple reasons (although it has some spectacular capabilities and can survive in an environment where current 4th-gen fighters can't), but Sprey's knowledge of fighter design theory is from literally 40 years ago. Let's not forget that he also thinks anything but the F-16A, with no radar and armed only with AIM-9s, is a travesty. He thinks the F-15E, with all of that ground attack mumbo-jumbo, is a piece of FOD.

I take everything he says on the subject through that filter.
 
I don't know, I figure I'd leave dogfighting to the dogfighters. I really don't know what goes into it beyond watching some old bald guy shoot his watch at TGI Fridays using words like "depart", "jink" and "lift vector". :)
 
Derg said:
I don't know, I figure I'd leave dogfighting to the dogfighters. I really don't know what goes into it beyond watching some old bald guy shoot his watch at TGI Fridays using words like "depart", "jink" and "lift vector". :)
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You forgot the guys that say tally-ho on the radios.

But ya, as if this thing will ever have to dogfight.
 
NewYorkophile said:
If you're dogfighting in an F-35 or even an F-22, you're doing it wrong.
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Fair enough point, but in reality it is a lot more complicated than that. In the fog of war, all kinds of things happen...even with GCI, even with AWACS, even with 5th generation radars.

I've been on both sides of that scenario, both in the F-15E as someone who stumbled into more than one unexpected merge during an LFE, and also as a bandit in the T-38, being able to worm my way to a merge with every blue fighter type I've flown against.

Merges can and will happen even with flawless tactic execution and perfect radar/sensor coverage.
 
Soku39 said:
You forgot the guys that say tally-ho on the radios
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When you have years and years of using a particular phrase to describe something, it is a challenge to change phrases. It isn't any different than the FO when I was recently on a jumpseat of a legacy airline who replied to radio calls with "Envoy....er,...."
 
Hacker15e said:
When you have years and years of using a particular phrase to describe something, it is a challenge to change phrases. It isn't any different than the FO when I was recently on a jumpseat of a legacy airline who replied to radio calls with "Envoy....er,...."
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I suppose, My tongue does slip occasionally and use my airline call sign in the military, and vice versa... but tally-ho will illicit an eye roll and a laugh in every cockpit on frequency when heard.
 
Hacker15e said:
Sprey doesn't have any actual knowledge of the capabilities of the actual airplane outside of what he's deriving from unclassified sources. Thus, he doesn't have an E-M diagram to be able to state that a MiG-21 would "hopelessly whip" the Lightning.

I'm not a fan of the Lightning for a couple reasons (although it has some spectacular capabilities and can survive in an environment where current 4th-gen fighters can't), but Sprey's knowledge of fighter design theory is from literally 40 years ago. Let's not forget that he also thinks anything but the F-16A, with no radar and armed only with AIM-9s, is a travesty. He thinks the F-15E, with all of that ground attack mumbo-jumbo, is a piece of FOD.

I take everything he says on the subject through that filter.
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Which is why I included the article as well.
 
Soku39 said:
I suppose, My tongue does slip occasionally and use my airline call sign in the military, and vice versa... but tally-ho will illicit an eye roll and a laugh in every cockpit on frequency when heard.
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I'll try to remember to feel embarrassed the next time I accidentally say it.
 
Blackhawk said:
https://medium.com/war-is-boring/test-pilot-admits-the-f-35-can-t-dogfight-cdb9d11a875
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Obviously it's in poor journalistic form to actually put a "source" in context. The article is semi-retarded. The mysterious rogue test pilot goes unnamed from a "FOUO" report - great credibility. The article fails to mention the fact that the "dogfighting" was a load monitoring test, departure susceptibility at high alpha, looking at how to "tweak" control laws and software, looking for TRO, etc.
 
Using the F-4 case is both right and wrong.

Wrong in that it's not 1970 anymore, and the poor missile performance that drove it to require a gun is no longer valid. Off bore sight AIM-9X, go home.

Right in that we will still explore the tactics that allow the fatter, slower airplane to still succeed in the dogfight...just like we did with the F-4.

And if we end up fighting an adversary Air Force like that of 1970, we've got bigger problems...aka not enough numbers.
 
End of the day this plane is going to suffer the same fate as the Osprey or the M16. It could turn into an X-wing 3 days after going IOC and single handedly save the world from the Death Star and it's still gonna be a failure to people.

It doesn't matter how well it does its job, the haters are gonna hate forever and refuse to listen to anyone or anything. Social media only compounds the problem.

There is a reason they give the microphone in a lecture hall to the speaker and not the audience.
 
Lawman said:
End of the day this plane is going to suffer the same fate as the Osprey or the M16. It could turn into an X-wing 3 days after going IOC and single handedly save the world from the Death Star and it's still gonna be a failure to people.

It doesn't matter how well it does its job, the haters are gonna hate forever and refuse to listen to anyone or anything. Social media only compounds the problem.

There is a reason they give the microphone in a lecture hall to the speaker and not the audience.
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I mean the thing did cost a trillion dollars. It's not like any of the hate is unfounded.
 
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