Extreme Outbound Turn

[chuckles1225]

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/1003/00094IL28R.PDF

Am I correct in interpreting this approach as requiring anyone coming in on the APE feeder route to make a 130 degree left turn to go outbound on the procedure turn? Has anyone ever seen this extreme of an outbound turn or actually flown this specific approach?

In anything faster than a skyhawk you would need to start your turn to 099 about 2 or 3 miles north of GOTSL to prevent flying through course. Do the minimum altitudes even guarantee obstacle clearance that far off course?

 

[SteveC]

MSA in that quadrant is 2800 so obstacle clearance inbound on the feeder route at 2900 shouldn't be an issue.

 

[Persian_Pilot]

Wouldn't you just intercept the LOC and shoot the approach if you're coming from APE?

Correct me if i'm wrong (And it's a big possibility since i'm a newly instrument rated guy), but the 228-R from APE brings you to GOTSIL and you could just intercept and follow the LOC/Glide slope.

 

[SIUav8er]

Wouldn't you just intercept the LOC and shoot the approach if you're coming from APE?

Correct me if i'm wrong (And it's a big possibility since i'm a newly instrument rated guy), but the 228-R from APE brings you to GOTSIL and you could just intercept and follow the LOC/Glide slope.

the feeder route doesnt say NOPT, so you have to fly outbound and do the procedure turn.

 

[Persian_Pilot]

the feeder route doesnt say NOPT, so you have to fly outbound and do the procedure turn.

Excellent point, thanks for the clearification.... However, I wonder why!!!? It seems like it would be much easier to just intercept the LOC then going outbound for a procedure turn.

 

[meritflyer]

I'll venture off and say that you'll receive vectors to the FAC most of the time which would negate the need for the PT.

 

[LucasM]

It wouldn't matter if you've been cleared for the approach from APE. Depending on the direction you were getting vectors to Gotsl you could do the proc. turn, but it's not like it's impossible to do the turn from Ape anyways, just be on your A game.

 

[minitour]

I'll venture off and say that you'll receive vectors to the FAC most of the time which would negate the need for the PT.

Yep. You aren't doing that approach "on your own" unless it's reeeeeeally late. Even then, probably for noise, you'll be turned on to final plenty outside GOTSL. I know the other side (the 10s) is noise sensitive, but not sure about the 28s. Either way, practically speaking, you aren't flying that procedure.

If it were me, in our light jet that comes down final at the same speeds as a 172, I'd make a steep (30-40 degrees of bank) right 220 intercepting the LOC, crossing GOTSL outbound, do the procedure turn and then proceed normally. ...if I had to.

-mini

 

[Xiph]

If it were me, in our light jet that comes down final at the same speeds as a 172, I'd make a steep (30-40 degrees of bank) right 220 intercepting the LOC, crossing GOTSL outbound, do the procedure turn and then proceed normally. ...if I had to.

I'd probably do the same, just to stay on the protected side and to stay away from the final for the other runway, but with the caveat that I wouldn't descend below 3100' before established outbound.

 

[minitour]

I'd probably do the same, just to stay on the protected side and to stay away from the final for the other runway, but with the caveat that I wouldn't descend below 3100' before established outbound.

You're plenty safe at MSA on that approach. I think the tallest obstructions in the CMH area are some antennas at around 2200' to the north of the city. IIRC.

That said, as long as you could negotiate a clearance to stay at 3100 until established outbound, I don't see a problem with that.

-mini

 

[fish314]

I know the AF teaches these a little differently than the civilian world, but one of the things they teach us are several different maneuvers for flying procedure turns. In the states they are all legal. The four main maneuvers we use are the "holding technique" the "teardrop," the "45/180" and the "80/260".
In the final two techniques, one maneuvers himself on to the inbound course in the outbound direction and makes a course reversal turn on the side depicted by the barb. The 45/180 maneuver uses the headings depicted on the barb. One flies outbound for spacing but ensures his maneuver will remain with the "remain within distance," makes a 45 degree heading change towards the protected side, flies that heading for 45 seconds or 1 minute depending on category, and then makes a 180 degree turn towards the inbound course. The "80/260" is the same except the pilot turns towards the protected side 80 degrees off, and then there is no further wait. He just reverses course with a 260 degree turn that brings him onto the inbound leg.

The teardrop maneuver works just like it sounds. Cross the IAF outbound and take a course 30 degrees off towards the protected side for one minute. Then make a reversal back to the course inbound.

The last maneuver treats the procedure turn like a holding pattern. Turn as though entering holding. This is the method I would use here. Fly from APE to GOTSL intersection, and then make a right turn as though you were entering a right holding pattern (since the protected side will be on the right in this case). Then fly an "outbound leg" for 1 minute and turn inbound.

That's how I'd do it, anyways.

 

[Xiph]

You're plenty safe at MSA on that approach. I think the tallest obstructions in the CMH area are some antennas at around 2200' to the north of the city. IIRC.

That said, as long as you could negotiate a clearance to stay at 3100 until established outbound, I don't see a problem with that.

If I knew the area better, then I might be willing to go lower. But if I'm in an unfamiliar area (which CMH is for me, since I've never been there), I'd rather abide by the MSAs unless I'm established on some published course. And, since the MSA is based off the NDB, which is a bit east of the IAF, I'd use the western MSA.

The last maneuver treats the procedure turn like a holding pattern. Turn as though entering holding. This is the method I would use here. Fly from APE to GOTSL intersection, and then make a right turn as though you were entering a right holding pattern (since the protected side will be on the right in this case). Then fly an "outbound leg" for 1 minute and turn inbound.

That's how I'd do it, anyways.

That would work also, actually. And the AIM does list it as an acceptable form of PT when a barb is depicted, as long as you don't descend below 2800 until abeam GOTSL on the outbound.