Exceeding 135.267 duty limits due to unforeseen circumstances...

A150K

A150K

Well-Known Member
A conversation with a friend provoked this discussion...Could a 14 hour duty day be exceeded on a 135 leg if the pilot took off expecting to make it before the clock hit 14 hours of duty time, but had an unforeseen circumstance pop up like a WX deviation or something that caused him to land at his destination a little after 14 hours? 135.267(e) provides provisions for flight time limitations being exceeded, but there's nothing written on duty times...I'm leaning towards no, 14 hours may nver be exceeded on a 135 leg, but I'm interested to hear what some of you guys think.
 
My understanding is the key word is "scheduled". Late pax = no go. Started engine, got an hour and a half ground hold = no go. 15 min ground hold, headwind instead of the planned tailwind, had to hold before landing at destination due to thunderboom cell over the field = no problem, increase the rest period per the FOM.
Also I don't think the FAA cares about your duty day, it's the 10 hr rest period that's specifically spelled out.

PS By the "can never be exceeded" logic - scenario I used above - what are you supposed to do? Land in a cornfield at 13:59 into your duty?

PPS Looked up the reg, the extra rest is for exceeding the flight time, not duty, but even there it talks about assignments and planned times.
 
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135.267 doesn't really have a maximum duty time, in most situations, only a requirement of 10 hours of rest before an assignment. Legal to start, legal to finish.
 
135.267(c) allows for a pilot to exceed the "10 in 24" rule by defining the duty period as the 14 hour window followed by 10 hours of rest. There is an interp that spells out what constitutes a regularly assigned duty period, i believe the minimum standard is 4 weeks of the assigned period, i.e. 6am-8pm for 4 days then 3 off, repeating for at least 4 weeks.

Duty time can be exceeded, because of late passengers/freight, etc. Operative word "can". Not must.


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Dugie8 said:
Duty time can be exceeded, because of late passengers/freight, etc.
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I'd quote the DO of my current shop, but there are filters on here.
Basically no, you cannot push the departure to where the landing (plus don't forget the domestic 30 mins) would bust the duty time for pax. I am told there was a reg like that long time ago, but it isn't there now so no, late pax do not constitute a legitimate reason for extending duty period.
 
Also must be REASONABLY planned. Worked for a shop that would plan for 14 on the dot and the day would go 17 without any real delays.
 
BigZ said:
I'd quote the DO of my current shop, but there are filters on here.
Basically no, you cannot push the departure to where the landing (plus don't forget the domestic 30 mins) would bust the duty time for pax. I am told there was a reg like that long time ago, but it isn't there now so no, late pax do not constitute a legitimate reason for extending duty period.
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Your DO is wrong

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...s/2012/kidd - (2012) legal interpretation.pdf

I don't like it but it is what it is.

30 minute post flight duties can exceed 14 hours. Setting aside the circumstances beyond your control, all you legally need to do is block in and at that block in time look back and see that 10 hours of rest in the preceding 24 hour period. After block in, you can not be in rest for 36 hours, 22 hours, 3 parsecs, it doesn't matter. All that is required is to have that 10 hours of rest in the 24 hour period before your next planned completion of a revenue flight.

Say I block in today at 2200 and I dutied on at 0800. 14 hours, all is legal. My boss could meet me at the door and hand me 8 hours worth of paperwork and say it needs to be done by 0600 the next morning. Completely legal. I finish the paperwork at 0600 and go into rest at 0601. I can duty on at 1602 and block in at 0602 the following day and that is all perfectly, by the regs, legal.

Aside from .267(c) and scheduled ops, the regs are only concerned about looking back and seeing 10 hours of rest in that 24 hour period following the completion of the FLIGHT (revenue/135).

Forgive me if my math is off a decimal place, long day of "avionics" intro.


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Dugie8 said:
block in
Click to expand...

Both shops that had anything to do with 135 I was at your duty ended mininum 30 min after landing. If there was a delay getting to hotel etc you notified the company and the actual time the rest could commence was the duty off time - for the purpose of starting the 10 hrs rest for the next assignment.

And yes, I agree that it has to be "when I'm done for the day, can I look back and say that the assignment as planned included the 10 hrs of company provided rest opportunity in the 24 hr period".
 
The FAA gives you enough rope to hang yourself with vague guidance. "Can" and "may" are used but the Chief Counsel doesn't tell you how often it maybe exceeded or by how much time.

Also there are differences between 267(b) and (c) ops and what can and cannot be done. With (c) you can end a shift flying 8 hrs and turn right back around and start flying another 8 as soon as you get 10 hrs of rest. That set schedule is the fatigue mitigation "safety net." In (b) you're rest/duty period is somewhat flexible, but you're locked into that 24 hr look back for flight time. That's the safety net for (b) ops. Also, "reasonably" and "planned" are very important factors.

The Kidd letter is a good one, by also look up the Barry (Berry?) and New letters.
 
For those really interested, if you're an NBAA member, they did a joint presentation with the FAA last February, but I believe you need a membership to view it now. It focuses on 267(b)/(d) and not so much (c).

Also, Ken Jackson's book Everything Explained 135 is worth the price.
 
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