Europeans Training in Vero

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skyrunner1500

Well-Known Member
I was just wondering if some of you guys who are currently at FlightSafety(students or instructors) have some more insight about the flight training the Austrians/Germans(sent from the airlines) do in Vero Beach.

Do they have their own instructors from Europe or do they use FS's instructors? As far as I know, they are doing all the groundschool in Europe and just come to the US for the flying part. Does anyone know what approx. number hours they are doing while they are in Florida? It seems like a big secret here in Europe, what they are doing exactly over there. The airlines and student pilots just tell you, that they are doing flight training in Vero Beach...hmm...I didn't like to get so much information...
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...it seems like, that they are not allowed to talk about their training...

The reason I'm asking is, that I just went through the selection process (which is very hard, btw: out of exactly 200 only 3 people passed the 2-days-test...) and I was one of 197 guys who didn't pass. It would have been nice, because the airline would have sponsored all my other ratings(I currently hold a PPL w/IFR) including a type-rating for an A-321(yes. that's the "entry-aircraft" at most airlines here in Europe). So I'm figuring out, what it would cost me, if I would go completely the same way, the airlines train their pilots, because they told me, that they they prefer pilot who are trained, like they trained them...

I would be very happy if somebody could get me more information "directly from the source",
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as nobody here in Europe wants to say, what they are doing exactly in Vero.....
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Skyrunner
 
Currently Flight Safety has a contract with RWL (German) and SwissAviation Training.

I don't believe that in either case the students are guaranteed jobs at the conclusion of their training.

I don't know enough to give you accurate numbers about their hour requirements however I believe that the Swiss students are here for approx 10 weeks and in that time fly 80-100 hrs. (Just my hour estimate) !
 
Baronman,

thanks four your response!

As far as I know, it is true, that the Swiss Aviation Training Students are mostly self-sponsored students who just want to do their ratings. But the RWL-Training is a little bit different: they already had to pass the initial selection process for "Lufthansa" just to be allowed to train at RWL.


It is a fact, that 99% of all RWL students get hired at Lufthansa or a sub-carrier after their training. Most of the training is even carried out by LH itself in Germany, so they start to train the Pilots how they want them to be. The Airlines are quite happy about that situation, because they don't have to train so many students themself at their own costs.

I think, that sometimes, they let the aspiring Pilots fail intentionally, just to save money. What the airline will have to pay in any case, are the costs for a Type-Rating.

Do you know if the RWL-Students have their own instructors or do they use FS's instructors?




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There's a selected group of FSI instructors that train the RWL students during most of their stay here at Vero. About one week before finishing the program, the RWL instructors come here to do the checkrides.

I didn't know that RWL selection process was so hard, but is good to know more about the program. Keep us posted.
 
The Lufthansa selection process is divided in two parts:

1. the "first examination" which takes two days in Hamburg(travel and living expenses at your own) is basically a test where they try to find out, if you have the talent to become a pilot. This test is considered as the most difficult entry-test in Europe at the moment. You will be asked a lot of physics(far beyound High-School knowledge), maths(you have to find the solution to each calculation within seconds, otherwise they will take it away from you. Like: 376*17:2. You've got 10 seconds.) and a lot of other exercises. There is also a 300 question psychological test: you've got 30minutes for all questions. However this test is really contested by a lot of people, because there are no tests who show your abilities to fly a plane, they just give you a lot of physics and maths exercises and say afterwards: yes, you can become a pilot, or: no, you won't become a pilot in our life. I know a pilot who failed this test ans is flying 777s now....

2. if you are one of the lucky-ones who passed the first-stage, you qualify automatically for the "company-qualification". Another two-day test(again at your own costs), but this time mostly psychological role-plays with psychologists, who try to find out how you would react in certain situations and ask you every question you wouldn't even dream of. A lot of personal questions about your history, your family and other stuff...

3. If you are one of the 2% of the applicants who passed both stages you go on to a simulator ride in a self-prgrammed sim where they just want you to monitor 8 instruments at the same time and sometimes they shut down the sim and you've got to tell them what instrument showed what and so on...I think that might be the easiest part of the whole selection process, if you've passed Stage I and II, you definetely don't have to frighten a checkride anymore!!

Finally(after about 3months of testing) you can go on to their own flight-training school(one in Germany and one in Phoenix-Goodyear). They train the pilots after only 10hours in the Archer upto their commercial and atp license only in Bonanzas(that's the reason Bonanza time is highly recommended if you want to fly for a european airline!) and on Piper Cheyennes(I think they have about 700 turbine HP's per engine, correct me if I'm wrong...). And you won't have to pay a cent in advance for the training, but you will have to sign a contract for a few years for Lufthansa.


The RWL-Students are just "ordinary" self-sponsored students, who only passed Stage I and failed at Stage II of the selection process and decided to finance the training themselfs. Lufthansa likes them very much, because the Airline doesn't pay a cent for their initial training and gets pilots that are more-or-less trained by the airline to their standards. RWL students are sent to FSI instead of Phoenix-Goodyear Airport for most of their flight training part, but it seems like a big national secret, what they are doing there....

If you have more questions and want to know more about Lufthansa's and other european airlines' selection process just let me know!



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[ QUOTE ]
The Lufthansa selection process is divided in two parts:

1. the "first examination" which takes two days in Hamburg(travel and living expenses at your own) is basically a test where they try to find out, if you have the talent to become a pilot. This test is considered as the most difficult entry-test in Europe at the moment. You will be asked a lot of physics(far beyound High-School knowledge), maths(you have to find the solution to each calculation within seconds, otherwise they will take it away from you. Like: 376*17:2. You've got 10 seconds.) and a lot of other exercises. There is also a 300 question psychological test: you've got 30minutes for all questions. However this test is really contested by a lot of people, because there are no tests who show your abilities to fly a plane, they just give you a lot of physics and maths exercises and say afterwards: yes, you can become a pilot, or: no, you won't become a pilot in our life. I know a pilot who failed this test ans is flying 777s now....

2. if you are one of the lucky-ones who passed the first-stage, you qualify automatically for the "company-qualification". Another two-day test(again at your own costs), but this time mostly psychological role-plays with psychologists, who try to find out how you would react in certain situations and ask you every question you wouldn't even dream of. A lot of personal questions about your history, your family and other stuff...

3. If you are one of the 2% of the applicants who passed both stages you go on to a simulator ride in a self-prgrammed sim where they just want you to monitor 8 instruments at the same time and sometimes they shut down the sim and you've got to tell them what instrument showed what and so on...I think that might be the easiest part of the whole selection process, if you've passed Stage I and II, you definetely don't have to frighten a checkride anymore!!

Finally(after about 3months of testing) you can go on to their own flight-training school(one in Germany and one in Phoenix-Goodyear). They train the pilots after only 10hours in the Archer upto their commercial and atp license only in Bonanzas(that's the reason Bonanza time is highly recommended if you want to fly for a european airline!) and on Piper Cheyennes(I think they have about 700 turbine HP's per engine, correct me if I'm wrong...). And you won't have to pay a cent in advance for the training, but you will have to sign a contract for a few years for Lufthansa.


The RWL-Students are just "ordinary" self-sponsored students, who only passed Stage I and failed at Stage II of the selection process and decided to finance the training themselfs. Lufthansa likes them very much, because the Airline doesn't pay a cent for their initial training and gets pilots that are more-or-less trained by the airline to their standards. RWL students are sent to FSI instead of Phoenix-Goodyear Airport for most of their flight training part, but it seems like a big national secret, what they are doing there....

If you have more questions and want to know more about Lufthansa's and other european airlines' selection process just let me know!
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[/ QUOTE ]

It might sound blunt, don't mean to be: When is Lufthansa going to start hiring Americans? Or put another way: when can I apply for a pilot position at Lufthansa? When I have the 1500TT and 500 multi that most airlines look for?
 
That will happen about the same time US majors start taking on German pilots while US pilots are still out on the street layed off......

Was that a sarcastic question?
 
[ QUOTE ]
It might sound blunt, don't mean to be: When is Lufthansa going to start hiring Americans? Or put another way: when can I apply for a pilot position at Lufthansa? When I have the 1500TT and 500 multi that most airlines look for?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lufthansa requires their "ready-entries"(that's how they call finished Pilots) to have 600TT with 300Multi. As always you've got higher chances of getting hired if you have some turbine/multi-crew time, but those are the bare minimums to apply. Additionally you have to hold a CPL/IFR and a "frozen" ATPL(either JAR-FCL or German license). If you're applying for their cargo-group you need to have 1000hours, mainly Jet-time.

Other requirements are a unlimited resident permit(or a passport from an EU-member country) and a maximium age of 32years at the time you start flying for them. The most difficult part is getting a residence-permit for Germany, that can take years, if you don't know how to do it right....

@ sorrygottarunway: I'll send you an e-mail today or tomorrow! I was really busy with University the last weeks...



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ok thanks!

600TT???? OH MY GOD! Ok, then this will be something to work for....

nope, it wasn't sarcastic at all... the first chance I get to apply by Lufthansa legally, the USA is getting my kiss goodbye.

While I was studying there I applied into their cadet program, and Isabelle Gersiek was very helpful in setting things up, right to the point until she found out I was american. It hit complications where my "unbefristet" (permanent) work visa and live-in visa wasn't obtainable (I couldn't even get them to write me a special invitiation which would let the consulate print me one out!) and then I never heard from again. I viewed the situation as turning down a highly qualified applicant for the sake of beaurocracy. Heck, at least let me take the test and see whats going on before saying no. Sprache war kein Hindernis!

Interestingly enough, I proctored a PPL written exam for a Brazilian fellow who just moved here and is getting his green card and work permit and residence stuff all taken care of, plans to become a US airline pilot or similar. Figures...
 
by the way... would there be a way of converting my CPL into a JAR license? Are there conversion courses overseas?

Frozen ATPL with 600 hours?
 
[ QUOTE ]
by the way... would there be a way of converting my CPL into a JAR license? Are there conversion courses overseas?

Frozen ATPL with 600 hours?

[/ QUOTE ]

You can credit all your hours towards the JAR licenses, but they do have certain hour requirements which are different than in the US. You can get a JAR-CPL with only 200hours TT, but you need to have logged 100hours IFR-PIC, what let the numbers move up a little....
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All you have to do is take the whole CPL-written exam(it's not a computerized test like the FAA-tests, you write on a plain sheet of paper...) and then do the checkride. Normally you would have to attend groundschool in Europe(you have to do groundschool in a classroom for everything over here....), but the FAA-license is condsidered as "successfully completed groundschool". However, I would take two or three lessons with a good instructor to find out the differences between flying in Europe and the US.
It is highly recommended, that you do all checkrides at once(CPL/IFR/ME). It is legal to do this-just make sure the examiner is willing to do it. So you just do a CPL-ride on an IFR-flight plan on a Multi-Engine aircraft.
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Then you go right on for the frozen ATPL(which is only the written ATPL). In Europe, the written ATPL is considered as the co-pilot's license, so nobody would hire you, without it. It is more or less an unwritten law. Nobody could ever show me, that it stands in the regulations....for the frozen ATPL you only need to attend groundschool and learn a lot(around 8,000questions in 14subjects). I have the questions as .pdf-Files and with an italian headline, but they are all in english. I will upload them to my webspace and post the link here. Most people who did the frozen ATPL needed little under 6months to pass it. This is the only test you can take on the computer, but it lasts two full days from 8-4 and you have to wait another two days for the results(I don't understand why you should wait for so long if it's computerized...)
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