Equipment Suffix

Bandit_Driver

Gold Member
Here's one that is driving my nuts.

Our 727's are RVSM capable with RNAV for enroute procedures only. Our OPS Spec prohibit us from using RNAV for approaches, SID, & STARS.

It seems that every time we are going to major airfield ORD, JFK, IAD, etc we get a RNAV STAR from clearance delivery. Of course we tell them we cannot accept it and then 10 - 15 minutes later they come back with a new route.

Once airborne and nearing the destination every controller tries to assign us the RNAV arrivial. Of course we tell them can't accept. Now hearing the frustration in their voice we usually get a delay vector, sometimes 180 degree turn off our route.

What gives...Why can't ATC deal with old jets? Is there something better than /Q to file for this old bird?
 

MikeDelta

Well-Known Member
Every now and then we get a B1900 that can't fly an RNAV appch going to TPA. The system assigns them a PDR (in this case USUALLY Hevvn to the Darbs1) but often it's the Fooxx1.

In my facility's case it's the dumb computer assigning the RNAV regardless of the equipment suffix.
 

BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
The FAA just recently changed the way they accept flight plans too. It's all ICAO standard which looks almost nothing like the old format. Of course, our operations people never told us about it until one morning all of the sudden our releases looked entirely different.

Anyhow, I still don't fully understand it, but we went from being /Q to "/M-SRWZ/C".
 

Bandit_Driver

Gold Member
The FAA just recently changed the way they accept flight plans too. It's all ICAO standard which looks almost nothing like the old format. Of course, our operations people never told us about it until one morning all of the sudden our releases looked entirely different.

Anyhow, I still don't fully understand it, but we went from being /Q to "/M-SRWZ/C".
I just checked one of ours and it now shows
/M-SDHGRW/S

Can anyone decode this?
 
I just checked one of ours and it now shows
/M-SDHGRW/S

Can anyone decode this?
All centers are going to a new flight plan processing computer system over the next few years, HOST is being replaced by ERAM and we are moving to the ICAO format, mainly becasue HOST does not have the capability to denote all the different types of equipment coming down the line.

Each element in your flight plan refers the computer to a different section of the flight plan that elaborates further on the details. For example, the "R" above will refer the computer to the navigation field which will detail the nav capabilities of your A/C.

We have tons of cheat sheets around the sectors because there is just so much info. Right now if we do a full route readout on the CRD and add an "I" to the end of the request we see the ICAO flight plan. In our URET system we can see the entire ICAO flight plan in a template and modify it if necessary.

Got all that ??? :buck:

Basically almost no dispatchers understand how to properly file under ICAO for odd stuff like your situation... ICAO flight plans have the capability to file any equipment combination, it's just a matter of knowing what to to file. Off hand I have no idea what you need to file... when I'm working I can go in URET and modify as needed.

My advice would be to have your dispatch contact the procedures office in the center overlying your home airport and inquire about how to file properly. What I hear happened is that the FAA dragged their feet for years going to the ICAO format... most dispatchers figured it was still years away, then one morning it was put in affect.
 

JLF

Well-Known Member
I just checked one of ours and it now shows
/M-SDHGRW/S

Can anyone decode this?
M=Medium Wake Turbulance
S=VHF, RTF, ADF, VOR, ILS
D=DME
H=NOT SURE
G=GNSS
R=RNP
W=RVSM
/S= Transponder Mode S


Now here is where you might be running into ATC issues:

At the end of the ICAO flt plan we have

NAV/RNVD1E2A1

this means RNAV for Departure1 Enroute2 Arrival1

I'd look at a release and see if it has the above. Sounds like it should be NAV/RNVDE2
 

BobDDuck

Island Bus Driver
The problem is most of the time, the company doesn't know.

"H" is for "HF RTF" so I'm guessing High Freq Radio Something.

Here's a link to a pretty good description of stuff.

One cool thing is that you can now set TAS and altitudes for individual legs. Not that I ever fly legs long enough that require step climbing, but at least the capability is there.
 

Vector4Food

This job would be easier without all the airplanes
Woo! Finally american flights with /W, should save the numerous calls from Oceanic for us to check ;)
 

MikeDelta

Well-Known Member
Was looking at the ICAO stuff today and there is a way for a pilot to have it changed to show he can't take RNAV arrivals. I'll get a copy of it and put it up here.
 

Bandit_Driver

Gold Member
Was looking at the ICAO stuff today and there is a way for a pilot to have it changed to show he can't take RNAV arrivals. I'll get a copy of it and put it up here.
Mike thanks, I am looking forward to figuring this new stuff out so I can foward it to my dispatchers...I am getting tired of making 180 degree turns off course why ATC figures out what to do...
 

Bandit_Driver

Gold Member
Ours is -DH8B/M-SDZ/C and I don't really have any idea what it means. Except for the DH8 part.
I'll take a crack at it but someone with more experience with this new format please feel free to correct me. I am still learning it.

DH8B/M-SDZ/C

DH8B = Aircraft Type Dash 8 B?

M= medium Wake Turbulance Category to indicate an aircraft type with a maximum certificated take-off mass of less than
36,000 kg (79200 lbs) but more than 7,000 kg (15400 lbs)

S= if standard COM/NAV/ approach aid equipment for the route to be flown is carried and serviceable (VOR, ILS, VHF, ADF)

D= DME

Z=Other equipment carried and the preceding character represents the additional item carried (DME)???

C=MODE C Transponder ? (Why would a Dash 8 only have mode C)

Ok I need some help with this one...
 

Juliet Lima

New Member
this whole ICAO junk is a bunch of junk.

for one, we don't have a medium wake turbulence category in America
for two, you have to dig deep into URET (a center flight plan computer) to find out exactly what the letters are for each flight
for three, even if i see all those letters like you guys have listed above...i don't know what the heck they mean.
for four, if someone changes their equipment suffix inflight and asks ATC to change it in the system, guess what...i have no clue how to do it. it's no longer "QB L CID enter", where L is /L. it's some whacked out long string of entries.

why not just file /W like the Eclipse Jets (EA50)? it allows u into RVSM airspace and cues most controllers to the fact that you can't accept a SID/STAR.

here's an sort of off topic question: Horizon flies a DH8B into my airport filed as a /G but can't accept an RNAV (GPS) RWY XX approach. how is that possible. if your /G you have the advanced rnav, GNSS, GPS, WAAS, etc. is it the pilot that isn't certified or the airplane? or both? i wondered why he didn't just file as /I so theres no confusion. i suppose /I could still fly the RNAV apch. just not sure what's up with Horizon.
 

braunpilot

What day is it?
/G is used for those aircraft that have the ability to use GPS for enroute and terminal use. States nothing about using it for any approach capability. Sorry due. Here is the table associated with the AIM.

[SIZE=-2]TBL 5-1-2
[/SIZE]
Aircraft Suffixes
[SIZE=-1]Suffix[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Equipment Capability[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]ADVANCED RNAV WITH TRANSPONDER AND MODE C[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] (If an aircraft is unable to operate with a transponder and/or Mode C, it will revert to the appropriate code listed above under Area Navigation.)[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]
/E [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Flight Management System (FMS) with DME/DME and IRU position updating[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]
/F [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]FMS with DME/DME position updating[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]
/G [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Global Navigation Satellite System (GNSS), including GPS or Wide Area Augmentation System (WAAS), with en route and terminal capability.
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]/R[/SIZE][SIZE=-1] Required Navigational Performance (RNP). The aircraft meets the RNP type prescribed for the route segment(s), route(s) and/or area concerned.[/SIZE]
 
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