Endoresment Needed to take FOI???

ready2fly

ready2fly

Well-Known Member
My understanding is that you do not need a written endoresment to take EITHER the FOI or the FIA. HOWEVER, FAR 61.183 says:

<font color="blue">From Part 61/H/61.183 eligibility req's for CFI

(d) Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor on the fundamentals of instructing listed in Sec. 61.185 of this part appropriate to the required knowledge test;
(e) Pass a knowledge test on the areas listed in Sec. 61.185
(a)(1) of this part, unless the applicant:
(1) Holds a flight instructor certificate or ground instructor certificate issued under this part;
(2) Holds a current teacher's certificate issued by a State, county, city, or municipality that authorizes the person to teach at an educational level of the 7th grade or higher; or
(3) Is employed as a teacher at an accredited college or university.
(f) Pass a knowledge test on the aeronautical knowledge areas listed in Sec. 61.185(a)(2) and (a)(3) of this part that are appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought;
(g) Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor on the areas of operation listed in Sec. 61.187(b) of this part, appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought;
(h) Pass the required practical test that is appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought in an:
(1) Aircraft that is representative of the category and class of aircraft for the aircraft rating sought; or
(2) Flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of the category and class of aircraft for the rating sought, and used in accordance with an approved course at a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter. </font>

When I took my FOI, the folks at the CAT'S testing center did not check for an endorsement. However, they did for every other test I took.

ALSO, I've spoken with the Chief Pilot at our FBO and it is his understanding that an endorsement is not needed.

Your thought?
 
Hey, Stan - you're right, no endorsement is needed. However, for your CFI checkride, you're required to have an endorsement from a CFI stating that you have recieved the instruction on the subjects in 61.185.

Sounds silly, huh? Yeah.... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Hurry and get your ticket so you can a complete airport bum!!!!
 
Then why does it say to receive an endorsement appropriate to the FOI knowledge test, followed by a semicolon and "pass the FOI knowledge test"?

I don't know what else that could mean.

My CFI and I have been going round-robin on this. If that is not what it means, what does it mean? It doesn't say anything anywhere in that sentence or the following one about "practical exam", it says "knowledge test" and "endorsement".

?????

Sarah
 
[ QUOTE ]
Then why does it say to receive an endorsement appropriate to the FOI knowledge test, followed by a semicolon and "pass the FOI knowledge test"?


[/ QUOTE ]
K.... just called the FSDO and they said "nope. Don't need it".

The FAR, when it refers to the "knowledge test", is referring to the Practical Test wherein your examiner has to test you on your knowledge of the Fundamentals of Instructing.

Clear as mud? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Then why does it say to receive an endorsement appropriate to the FOI knowledge test, followed by a semicolon and "pass the FOI knowledge test"?


[/ QUOTE ]
K.... just called the FSDO and they said "nope. Don't need it".

The FAR, when it refers to the "knowledge test", is referring to the Practical Test wherein your examiner has to test you on your knowledge of the Fundamentals of Instructing.

Clear as mud? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

No it's not. A "knowledge test" is a written test. A "practical test" is an all-encompassing ground/flight test given by an authorized person (DE for example).
 
[ QUOTE ]
My understanding is that you do not need a written endoresment to take EITHER the FOI or the FIA. HOWEVER, FAR 61.183 says:

<font color="blue">From Part 61/H/61.183 eligibility req's for CFI

(d) Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor on the fundamentals of instructing listed in Sec. 61.185 of this part appropriate to the required knowledge test;
(e) Pass a knowledge test on the areas listed in Sec. 61.185
(a)(1) of this part, unless the applicant:
(1) Holds a flight instructor certificate or ground instructor certificate issued under this part;
(2) Holds a current teacher's certificate issued by a State, county, city, or municipality that authorizes the person to teach at an educational level of the 7th grade or higher; or
(3) Is employed as a teacher at an accredited college or university.
(f) Pass a knowledge test on the aeronautical knowledge areas listed in Sec. 61.185(a)(2) and (a)(3) of this part that are appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought;
(g) Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor on the areas of operation listed in Sec. 61.187(b) of this part, appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought;
(h) Pass the required practical test that is appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought in an:
(1) Aircraft that is representative of the category and class of aircraft for the aircraft rating sought; or
(2) Flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of the category and class of aircraft for the rating sought, and used in accordance with an approved course at a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter. </font>

[/ QUOTE ]

You're reading too much into what the FAR says, Stan. Example:

[ QUOTE ]
Sec. 61.103 - Eligibility requirements: General. (private pilot)

To be eligible for a private pilot certificate, a person must:

(a) Be at least 17 years of age for a rating in other than a glider or balloon.

(b) Be at least 16 years of age for a rating in a glider or balloon.

(c) Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language. If the applicant is unable to meet one of these requirements due to medical reasons, then the Administrator may place such operating limitations on that applicant's pilot certificate as are necessary for the safe operation of the aircraft.

<font color="red">(d) Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor who:

(1) Conducted the training or reviewed the person's home study on the aeronautical knowledge areas listed in §61.105(b) of this part that apply to the aircraft rating sought; and

(2) Certified that the person is prepared for the required knowledge test.

(e) Pass the required knowledge test on the aeronautical knowledge areas listed in §61.105(b) of this part. </font>

<font color="blue">(f) Receive flight training and a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor who:

(1) Conducted the training in the areas of operation listed in §61.107(b) of this part that apply to the aircraft rating sought; and

(2) Certified that the person is prepared for the required practical test. </font>

(g) Meet the aeronautical experience requirements of this part that apply to the aircraft rating sought before applying for the practical test.

(h) Pass a practical test on the areas of operation listed in §61.107(b) of this part that apply to the aircraft rating sought.

(i) Comply with the appropriate sections of this part that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought.

[/ QUOTE ]

You'll notice that in the Private Pilot langauge it states, specifically, that a logbook endorsement is required to take the "knowledge test" and further that the knowledge test "must be passed."

This language is absent in the FOI/CFI requirements you've posted.

The FOI/CFI language is simply stating that in order to take the practical you need an endoresemnt stating that your CFI has gone over the FOI with you.

Further AC61.65D (which you should be very familiar with) states: "5. KNOWLEDGE TESTS. The knowledge tests for the recreational pilot certificate, private pilot certificate, commercial pilot certificate, airline transport pilot (ATP) certificate, flight instructor certificate, ground instructor certificate, and ratings cover the subject areas in which aeronautical knowledge is required by part 61. ... b. Applicants are not required to show such evidence to take the ATP, CFI, certificated ground instructor (CGI), military competency, or foreign pilot instrument knowledge tests unless they are applying to retake a test after failing that test (per § 61.49)."

Here's the actual endorsement:
[ QUOTE ]
23. Fundamentals of instructing knowledge test: §§ 61.183(d) and 61.185(a)(1)

I certify that (First name, MI, Last name) has received the required fundamentals of instruction training of
§ 61.185(a)(1).

S/S [date] J.J. Jones 987654321CFI Exp. 12-31-00

[/ QUOTE ]
 
[ QUOTE ]
Then why does it say to receive an endorsement appropriate to the FOI knowledge test, followed by a semicolon and "pass the FOI knowledge test"?

[/ QUOTE ] The semicolon is just used to separate the list of things qualifications for obtaining a CFI certificate. In the context of the regulation, you can simply replace the semicolon with the word "and"

==============================
§ 61.183 Eligibility requirements.
To be eligible for a flight instructor certificate or rating a person must:
(a) Be at least 18 years of age;
(b) Be able to read, speak, write, and understand the English language...;
(c) Hold either a commercial pilot certificate or airline transport pilot certificate with:
(d) Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor on the fundamentals of instructing...;
(e) Pass a knowledge test on the areas listed in § 61.185(a)(1) of this part...;
(f) Pass a knowledge test on the aeronautical knowledge...;
(g) Receive a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor on the areas of operation listed in § 61.187(b) of this part...
(h) Pass the required practical test...;

etc

(j) Log at least 15 hours as pilot in command in the category and class of aircraft that is appropriate to the flight instructor rating sought; and
(k) Comply with the appropriate sections of this part that apply to the flight instructor rating sought.
 
I went to my FBO where I am finishing Comm./CFI and there was a kid there taking his Comm. written. The FAA also happened to be there, and the kid says... "Alright, well I have to get my signoff and I will take the test in about 20 mins (CATS system)." So the FAA says, "He needs a signoff to take a test?"

Haha... so I said, YES---you guys all require that we (pilots) get endorsed by our CFIs before we can take these writtens saying that we have adequate knowlege. The FAA rep. then talked to his partner and came back with the follwing reply:
"It used to be a huge ordeal to take the written when you actually had to go to the testing centers and apply for the test, fill in the bubble sheet, and so forth."

Basically, this person said there isn't really a specific need for them anymore now that we have computer based testing. It was a formality that was used in the past to reduce the congestion amongst applicants who were taking the test to basically ensure that they pass.
 
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