Duty Time 135
- Thread starter brian434
- Start date
brian434
Well-Known Member
Wonder how the FSDO would feel about accepting a flight before our 14th hour that was planned to go beyond our 14th.
Here is the situation. In your normal 12 hour duty day you've accepted a flight that runs late. Now it's 30 minutes before your 14th hour and the flight is planned to take two hours. Am I good to take it? Everything I read about the reg requires x hours of rest after x hours of flight. Flight time is a total of 6 hours.
Here is the situation. In your normal 12 hour duty day you've accepted a flight that runs late. Now it's 30 minutes before your 14th hour and the flight is planned to take two hours. Am I good to take it? Everything I read about the reg requires x hours of rest after x hours of flight. Flight time is a total of 6 hours.
TheNorthStar
Well-Known Member
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_G...05e40120a1cddf538625694a007027dc!OpenDocument
FAR 135.267 (c) pretty simple really.
FAR 135.267 (c) pretty simple really.
Boris Badenov
Fortis Leader
You have to have 10 hours of rest in the preceeding 24. The preceeding 24 is a constant "lookback window". Thus, there is a de facto 14 hour duty time limit, meaning that you cannot take a flight the planned completion of which would violate the 10 hour rest rule. So, no, there's no wiggle room.
Now, if you mean that you began a flight cycle with the reasonable expectation that you would finish before 14 hours, but now you're at an outstation and something has gone wrong (unforseen weather, pax problem, whatever) and you want to go home under 135, I think it depends very much on your POI. My company will allow (note I say "allow", NOT "expect") us to go to 15 hours for unexpected delays, and 16 hours with the approval of a regional manager. I don't read the rule this way, but apparently our POI does. *shrug*
Now, if you mean that you began a flight cycle with the reasonable expectation that you would finish before 14 hours, but now you're at an outstation and something has gone wrong (unforseen weather, pax problem, whatever) and you want to go home under 135, I think it depends very much on your POI. My company will allow (note I say "allow", NOT "expect") us to go to 15 hours for unexpected delays, and 16 hours with the approval of a regional manager. I don't read the rule this way, but apparently our POI does. *shrug*
To add on to Boris's succinct summation, our company stance is that using the "...circumstances beyond our control..." clause to exceed the 10-in-24 rest requirement is very limited. It used to be more liberally interpreted to mean that if we start the day with a planned completion within the limits we were basically OK to exceed the rest requirement if, for example, the pax were late for the last leg. No longer. We now say that we must be able to complete the final 135 leg within limits as we close the aircraft door - and then if unforeseen circumstances cause us to exceed (weather, ATC delays, etc.) we are OK to finish the trip legally. I'd wager to guess that most 135 operators are not as conservative as we.
Another side note: as Boris said the rest requirement is concerning 135 flight duty only. There is no regulatory reason that you can't work 24 hours straight or more, but anything over 14 hours of that duty had better be non-flying (stocking aircraft, updating Jepps, whatever). That's why I try to clarify when people talk about a 14 hour duty limit - that's really not the right terminology, but "14 hour duty" sure is easier to say than "10 hours of rest in he previous 24 hours".
Another side note: as Boris said the rest requirement is concerning 135 flight duty only. There is no regulatory reason that you can't work 24 hours straight or more, but anything over 14 hours of that duty had better be non-flying (stocking aircraft, updating Jepps, whatever). That's why I try to clarify when people talk about a 14 hour duty limit - that's really not the right terminology, but "14 hour duty" sure is easier to say than "10 hours of rest in he previous 24 hours".
Crockrocket94
Well-Known Member
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../interpretations/data/interps/2009/Mayors.pdf
and
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...0/interpretations/data/interps/2009/Berry.pdf
Good reads pertaining to 135 on call/duty stuff.
Example, if the above information is true, then on call is NOT on rest. Therefore you can only be on call for 14 hours. It states it clear as day on page 2/3 of the Mayors PDF.
So, technically, today I received an email stating i am ON CALL tomorrow. It doesnt specify a period, so reading this article I am off now, as it was a scheduled off day which ends at 2359. At 0000 I am on call, which i could interpret to being on duty, so from 0000 to 1400, I am on duty/on call. After 1400 I need 10 hours consecutive rest which would put me on rest until 0000 the following day, then I have complied with the 10 consecutive hours of rest in the 24 hour period preceding the 14hours on duty. I consider on call as on duty as I am required to answer my phone.
Thoughts?
and
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...0/interpretations/data/interps/2009/Berry.pdf
Good reads pertaining to 135 on call/duty stuff.
Example, if the above information is true, then on call is NOT on rest. Therefore you can only be on call for 14 hours. It states it clear as day on page 2/3 of the Mayors PDF.
So, technically, today I received an email stating i am ON CALL tomorrow. It doesnt specify a period, so reading this article I am off now, as it was a scheduled off day which ends at 2359. At 0000 I am on call, which i could interpret to being on duty, so from 0000 to 1400, I am on duty/on call. After 1400 I need 10 hours consecutive rest which would put me on rest until 0000 the following day, then I have complied with the 10 consecutive hours of rest in the 24 hour period preceding the 14hours on duty. I consider on call as on duty as I am required to answer my phone.
Thoughts?
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
No, you are not on duty at 0000. You just can't count the time as rest. Clear as mud?
Edit- I stand corrected. This 2009 letter actually DOES say you are on duty. Previous letters said you were not on duty but it was not rest.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
Note: To go beyond the 14 hours it has to be something 'beyond the control' of the operator or you. This also means it was not forseeable at the time you started the mission. If you see huge lines of thunderstorms in between you and your destination and you flightplan going right through them because otherwise you would exceed 14 hours by going around, then when you get in the air you decide to go around and exceed 14 hours then it wouldn't be kosher.
Crockrocket94
Well-Known Member
Now its just getting the FSDO to agree with my above sentiment and not my companies
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
Should be pretty clear when presented with the signed interpretation from FAA legal
Tommay85
Well-Known Member
Legal to start, legal to finish. The key phrase in this reg is "may not accept an assignment yadda yadda yadda". You can't accept an assignment that violates the 10 hours of rest in 24 rule. Then it depends how your company does your assignment. Flight Express does my entire night at once. Some may do it leg by leg I guess.
I accept an assignment on Monday with a duty on time at 2030, flight is proposed to leave at and arrive at 2345. Leave again at 0640 and arrive back to base at 0855, duty off at 0910. 12.7 hours duty time.
This is my proposal every night, unless there was an issue with the previous night.(long duty periods like this can have 8 in 24 issues for flight time).
Using an extreme example, on this particular night, I arrive at my destination on-time, but the guy that takes my stuff out and back runs really late. I don't get re-proposed because the other guy is late. We go off the original proposal(assignment). Anyways, I don't leave until 0900 and arrive back to base at 1100, duty off at 1115. I've gone over 14 hours by 45 minutes. The legal issue isn't that I've gone over, it's when I can accept the next assignment. On Tuesday night, It would be illegal for Flight express to assign my line with the normal 2030 duty on time. I would have only received 9 hours and 15 minutes of rest. It would be illegal for me to accept this assignment as well. So the earliest duty on proposal I could accept would be 2115. This would cause an absolute mess and by the end of the week, I'd be doing day runs! haha So dutying off after 1030 is avoided at all costs if possible.
This applies to the flight time rule as well. Again, the key phrase is "the assignment can't exceed blah blah blah". When I do my Wichita runs in addition to my normal run, my proposals are always 7 hours and 58 minutes. Usually the actual flight time is around 7 hours and 30 minutes, but has gone over 8 a couple times, which just requires additional rest depending on how much over it goes.
I accept an assignment on Monday with a duty on time at 2030, flight is proposed to leave at and arrive at 2345. Leave again at 0640 and arrive back to base at 0855, duty off at 0910. 12.7 hours duty time.
This is my proposal every night, unless there was an issue with the previous night.(long duty periods like this can have 8 in 24 issues for flight time).
Using an extreme example, on this particular night, I arrive at my destination on-time, but the guy that takes my stuff out and back runs really late. I don't get re-proposed because the other guy is late. We go off the original proposal(assignment). Anyways, I don't leave until 0900 and arrive back to base at 1100, duty off at 1115. I've gone over 14 hours by 45 minutes. The legal issue isn't that I've gone over, it's when I can accept the next assignment. On Tuesday night, It would be illegal for Flight express to assign my line with the normal 2030 duty on time. I would have only received 9 hours and 15 minutes of rest. It would be illegal for me to accept this assignment as well. So the earliest duty on proposal I could accept would be 2115. This would cause an absolute mess and by the end of the week, I'd be doing day runs! haha So dutying off after 1030 is avoided at all costs if possible.
This applies to the flight time rule as well. Again, the key phrase is "the assignment can't exceed blah blah blah". When I do my Wichita runs in addition to my normal run, my proposals are always 7 hours and 58 minutes. Usually the actual flight time is around 7 hours and 30 minutes, but has gone over 8 a couple times, which just requires additional rest depending on how much over it goes.
Dugie8
Well-Known Member
msmspilot
Well-Known Member
Depends on if you're 135 or 121. 135.267(d) says rest that precedes "the planned completion time of the assignment" while 121.471(b) says "the scheduled completion of any flight segment." Very different wording.