Don't trust the ATO

cboy40

New Member
There are going to be some on here that will say I am just angry, but I'm going to post this so incoming students at the academy won't have the same issue that another student and I had. I recently went through the academy. Things went well up until the last couple of days. Like many students, I got really nervous, and my first PV (performance verification/validation) didn't go so well. I was actually looking forward to the second day, when the ATO (Air Traffic Organization) would grade us and I would have some practice problems under my belt. So I proceeded to run my problem. It wasn't flawless, but I felt really good about the problem, and knew that I had done what the ATO guys (Scott and Ken aka- Crazy ATO Kenny) had told us that we should do. What they told us twice throughout our training (they come in one at a time during the enroute training and talk to you for about an hour) is that the instructors that would be grading us on the first day will probably be looking for almost a perfect problem. They also proceeded to tell us that when they graded us, they weren't looking for perfection, but that they were looking for a "person that has potential" and a "person that can be trained." So I when they asked for me back in the room, I was pretty confident. They proceeded to tell me that they weren't able to pass me, and then proceeded to tell me why. I then signed a document, went to student services, then to travel, and just like that (about 15 mins.) I was no longer a part of the FAA.
So here are some specifics. 1) Don't trust them when they say, "if you have the red W's on the strip, and only have one confliction, we know you saw the traffic." 2) They will be pickier than your first grader. They know this stuff inside and out, and will use anything that they may have told you "won't be a big deal," to push you out. 3) They will tell you that "even if only one of us passes you, you will get the benefit of the doubt and be passed." Check out the training manual. It specifically says that they will come to a consesus before they tell you. 4) Be prepared to run a SUPER long problem. Most of us the first day ran problems 35-40 mins. The ATO kept us in there for over 50 mins. It has been said that this might be grounds to take them to court, but who really wants to do that?
All in all, the moral of the story is...PASS IT ON THE FIRST DAY!
 
Sorry to hear the news, I never believed the 92-95% pass rate they claim because for every Enroute class I ever heard of who PV's it seems like there are always at least 2-3 who fail out of 16 or so. It sucks that you may have gotten screwed due to a numbers game, maybe since the washout rate it high at facilities they are going to start to crack down hard in OKC? It's scary I my class just recently started basics and there are rumors even non-radar will be pass/fail soon. Anyway good luck with everything in the future.
 
Sorry to hear the news, I never believed the 92-95% pass rate they claim because for every Enroute class I ever heard of who PV's it seems like there are always at least 2-3 who fail out of 16 or so. It sucks that you may have gotten screwed due to a numbers game, maybe since the washout rate it high at facilities they are going to start to crack down hard in OKC? It's scary I my class just recently started basics and there are rumors even non-radar will be pass/fail soon. Anyway good luck with everything in the future.

Better to wash people out at OKC than to get them to facilities, spend even more money to train them there, and then wash them out.

I'm not saying that I agree with what happened to the OP, I'm just talking in general. Way back in the day, I guess a lot more people washed out in OKC.
 
There are going to be some on here that will say I am just angry, but I'm going to post this so incoming students at the academy won't have the same issue that another student and I had. I recently went through the academy. Things went well up until the last couple of days. Like many students, I got really nervous, and my first PV (performance verification/validation) didn't go so well. I was actually looking forward to the second day, when the ATO (Air Traffic Organization) would grade us and I would have some practice problems under my belt. So I proceeded to run my problem. It wasn't flawless, but I felt really good about the problem, and knew that I had done what the ATO guys (Scott and Ken aka- Crazy ATO Kenny) had told us that we should do. What they told us twice throughout our training (they come in one at a time during the enroute training and talk to you for about an hour) is that the instructors that would be grading us on the first day will probably be looking for almost a perfect problem. They also proceeded to tell us that when they graded us, they weren't looking for perfection, but that they were looking for a "person that has potential" and a "person that can be trained." So I when they asked for me back in the room, I was pretty confident. They proceeded to tell me that they weren't able to pass me, and then proceeded to tell me why. I then signed a document, went to student services, then to travel, and just like that (about 15 mins.) I was no longer a part of the FAA.
So here are some specifics. 1) Don't trust them when they say, "if you have the red W's on the strip, and only have one confliction, we know you saw the traffic." 2) They will be pickier than your first grader. They know this stuff inside and out, and will use anything that they may have told you "won't be a big deal," to push you out. 3) They will tell you that "even if only one of us passes you, you will get the benefit of the doubt and be passed." Check out the training manual. It specifically says that they will come to a consesus before they tell you. 4) Be prepared to run a SUPER long problem. Most of us the first day ran problems 35-40 mins. The ATO kept us in there for over 50 mins. It has been said that this might be grounds to take them to court, but who really wants to do that?
All in all, the moral of the story is...PASS IT ON THE FIRST DAY!

So what reason specifically did they give for not passing you?
 
the big reason was that i had a confliction, but only one. i also had seen it and had my red W's on the strips. when it came about, i solved it quickly.

also, to the one who was talking about non-radar being pass/fail. it's true. they are going to be doing it soon. the good news is that (according to non-radar instructors) the problems will be quite a bit easier. i also heard rumor of the radar side of things being weighted throughout the labs instead of everything being based on one day after only 18 hours of actual D-side working time in the labs. they should have come up with that a LONG time ago.
 
the big reason was that i had a confliction, but only one. i also had seen it and had my red W's on the strips. when it came about, i solved it quickly.

also, to the one who was talking about non-radar being pass/fail. it's true. they are going to be doing it soon. the good news is that (according to non-radar instructors) the problems will be quite a bit easier. i also heard rumor of the radar side of things being weighted throughout the labs instead of everything being based on one day after only 18 hours of actual D-side working time in the labs. they should have come up with that a LONG time ago.

First off, I just want to say how sorry I am that you didn't pass. That is really a blow, especially after putting so much time and effort into your training, in addition to the waiting to actually start. Since I wasn't there, I can't really judge the validity of your PV, but it sounds like you're getting a raw deal.

I'm going to a Tracon, so I don't fully understand the reason they failed you. Did you have an actual loss of separation? Or was it merely close? I just don't see how they could fail you if separation was not lost.

I understand if you don't really want to talk about it. I wouldn't if I were in your shoes. Like others have said, Good Luck with whatever your pursue in the future!
 
First off, I just want to say how sorry I am that you didn't pass. That is really a blow, especially after putting so much time and effort into your training, in addition to the waiting to actually start. Since I wasn't there, I can't really judge the validity of your PV, but it sounds like you're getting a raw deal.

I'm going to a Tracon, so I don't fully understand the reason they failed you. Did you have an actual loss of separation? Or was it merely close? I just don't see how they could fail you if separation was not lost.

I understand if you don't really want to talk about it. I wouldn't if I were in your shoes. Like others have said, Good Luck with whatever your pursue in the future!

Trust me, they can fail you if separation is not lost. It happened to me today in my Local Control PV. If you have several little things (and by little, I mean LITTLE) that go wrong, you could be up for some SET and a Retake.

I'm going to rip the PV tomorrow morning a new •. I know my stuff, it just so happened that I was extremely nervous. Do what you can to calm your nerves and you'll be fine.
 
well sometimes they fail people who they don't like, even thou you can do well they will just fail you or visa versa, i work at the TRACON and we got one guy who has been training for 3 years and FAA dont want to fail him because they like him even thou 3 year is too much for training.
 
The ATO told my class the same thing as the OPs and all 4 that failed the first day failed the second day. Makes it seem like if you fail the first day your fate is sealed... unless you can go 50 minutes without making ONE mistake.
 
Trust me, they can fail you if separation is not lost. It happened to me today in my Local Control PV. If you have several little things (and by little, I mean LITTLE) that go wrong, you could be up for some SET and a Retake.

I'm going to rip the PV tomorrow morning a new •. I know my stuff, it just so happened that I was extremely nervous. Do what you can to calm your nerves and you'll be fine.

That sucks, let us know how the re-take goes!
 
Trust me, they can fail you if separation is not lost. It happened to me today in my Local Control PV. If you have several little things (and by little, I mean LITTLE) that go wrong, you could be up for some SET and a Retake.

I'm going to rip the PV tomorrow morning a new •. I know my stuff, it just so happened that I was extremely nervous. Do what you can to calm your nerves and you'll be fine.

Good luck, swinte. Your post makes me nervous, and I'm not even at the Academy yet. :p
 
So swinte...I hope no post today means you are too busy out celebrating to post about the PV today. Hope all went well.
 
A tip for those taking the PV. Eat as little processed food as possible the three days prior to PV. That gives your body the chance to balance out your PH. That means especially limit your caffeine during that time, if no other time at least the day before. You should have no problem going to sleep at a decent hour, no matter how wired/excited you are. :) The day of -- work out. Work out as hard as you possibly/safely can. It helps your mind focus and burns off the anxiety/anxiousness and allows your mind to focus. If it at all possible have something in your mouth. Gum has been proven to heighten focus and increase resolve (google/yahoo it) :). Telling yourself to relax is not always possible/easy. Give your body the tools to do it for you. :) NOt saying any of this is a 100% for this situation (heck I am in the MMPI limbo so I could be crazy :rotfl: [hope not]) But I know the rare time I have been super excited, this has worked for me.
 
Realistically if you fail your PV you've probably got no chance at your actual facility. At least in the center environment.
 
Guy in my class hot the MOA, and had flashers, and passed his first time.

Also, the two people in my class that failed the first day both had two sets of flashers on the retake and they both passed.

We had 17 of 17 pass in my class, and 16 of 17 pass in my sister class. I also know of many other classes with the same statistics. The en route passing percentage of 94% or better is accurate.

If you do on problems 30-36, then the pv will be a JOKE for you. I did fine on those problems and had no seperation errors on them (and they were crazy busy). So when I got to the pv it was SO slow compared to them. I had nothing to do for most of it because I already had all my planes seperated, pointed out, etc...

If you do have flashers, what you do to correct it, and how you handle the rest of the problem is what will pass you. The two guys that both had to sets of flashers on their retakes only passed because they were able to handle it and they were still "in charge" of the sector...that's what the ATO guys said.
 
Anyone worried that swinte00 still hasn't been back with an update?

I am. I didn't want to say anything though. Kinda like when you're in Vegas playing craps and the shooter has been on a long run. You're thinking to yourself, "I haven't seen the seven in a while. . ." But you NEVER say that out loud.

Hopefully he's been busy.
 
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