Don't mess with Flight Attendants

fender_jag

fender_jag

Well-Known Member
Don\'t mess with Flight Attendants

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TRAVEL/05/13/security.airlines.reut/index.html

I think it's a great idea; although if anyone dared to make a move to the cockpit, he/she wpuld probably find himself/herself on the bottom of a dogpile a la 100 passengers.

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Re: Don\'t mess with Flight Attendants

I think this would be a reasonable precaution as the flight attendants are more exposed than the pilots. Now the problem is funding for training.
 
Re: Don\'t mess with Flight Attendants

AA has had a voluntary program in place since a few months after 9/11. They had an agreement with a martail arts place based in LA and they went around to all the bases conducting voluntary classes. I didn't have the chance to attend, though I would have like to.

Training will not be that difficult. All the airlines have to do is consult with a martial arts guru (maybe the same one they did before?) write up a program, and train the instructors. The benefits of such a program far outweigh the nominal cost.

I knew after 9/11 that no one was going to get past me into a cockpit. (At least without a good fight!)
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It does make me cringe now to remember the security classes I used to teach my new-hires. Especially one particular video (I think you can remember the one I'm talking about JT!)
 
Re: Don\'t mess with Flight Attendants

Well, from what I understand, several airlines have a voluntary program in place while other airlines have a self defence program for the F/A's. If the Federal Gov were to step in & make it a mandatory program, then guess who would have to foot the bill. I would consider this an airline internal program.
 
Re: Don\'t mess with Flight Attendants

[ QUOTE ]
Training will not be that difficult. All the airlines have to do is consult with a martial arts guru (maybe the same one they did before?) write up a program, and train the instructors. The benefits of such a program far outweigh the nominal cost.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense but it's actually much more involved than that. At least it would be if you actually want an effective "fighter."

The problem with martial arts is that for it to be efective it must become part of your life. It's not something you can simply "learn" once and then be good to go. It's a lot like flying ... sure you can learn to fly but if you don't stay current when the time comes to use the skills they've eroded so badly they are pretty much useless.

It also takes a certain mindset – everyone says they can do harm to another person when the time comes but not everyone can. It's a decision you must come to peace with far before you must act on it and that peace and the mere act of making the decision oly comes with training. I've been teaching/training for nearly 10 years, I'm a second degree black-belt and I've made my decision but when the time comes even I may hesitate or not be able to do it – the point is even after having come to terms with what I might do I still do not know what I'll do because, thankfully, I've not been tested.

I'm not saying it's worthless to train FA in martial arts I'm saying it's much more involved than learning a few "moves" and then expecting to be able to dis-arm a fanatic who has no problem sacrificing his or her own life. The program has to be an ongiong (at the weekly level and certainly no longer than the monthly level) program of training and practice for it to be truly effective.

In other words the FAs that participated would have to become martial artists who are also FAs. Unlike what I fear will probably be the case where it's FA's who know a litlle martial arts. This is one case where the saying "know enough to be dangerous" is literally true.
 
Re: Don\'t mess with Flight Attendants

Couldn't they teach them something similar to the rape defense classes that they used to teach when I was in college? I know that the goal of those was different but it would likely buy them time until someone could pound the living crap out of the potential hijacker.
 
Re: Don\'t mess with Flight Attendants

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Couldn't they teach them something similar to the rape defense classes that they used to teach when I was in college? I know that the goal of those was different but it would likely buy them time until someone could pound the living crap out of the potential hijacker.

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No! This is exactly the tpye of thing I hate most!

While the information taught in these seminars is usually pretty good the problem is without "long-term," consistent training most people forget what they've been taught or can't apply it because they haven't been trained to. I actually wish people wouldn't go to seminars like these because 9 times out of 10 the person leaves with a false sense of security. They believe they can actually defend themselves when in reality they can't. Yes the "moves" may work but unless you've trained to the point where you can perform them from instinct (without hesitation or thought) they are essentially useless and in many cases will just enrage the attacker/make the situation worse than had the victim simplu complied with the attacker. One of the very first things I teach my students is if someone asks for your wallet, hand it over.

Here's an anology:

You can take a private pilot and explain the theory and rules of an instrument approach. And in a couple hours of training you may even get that person to fly a given appraoch within limits. But take that same person with only that training and eight months down the road have them fly that same approach in actual conditions down to minimums and what do you think is going to happen?

It's the exact same thing with martial arts ... these "self defense" seminars are teaching someone a few moves which they may be able to "master" in the training period. But a few months down the road and it's worthless for many, many reasons.
 
Re: Don\'t mess with Flight Attendants

I see what you're saying. It's like any other motor skill. Stop doing it for a while and then you don't do it as well, and if it is a life and death situation...
 
Re: Don\'t mess with Flight Attendants

It's certainly not the *perfect* solution, but it's better than nothing!
 
Re: Don\'t mess with Flight Attendants

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Training will not be that difficult. All the airlines have to do is consult with a martial arts guru (maybe the same one they did before?) write up a program, and train the instructors. The benefits of such a program far outweigh the nominal cost.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense but it's actually much more involved than that. At least it would be if you actually want an effective "fighter."

The problem with martial arts is that for it to be efective it must become part of your life. It's not something you can simply "learn" once and then be good to go. It's a lot like flying ... sure you can learn to fly but if you don't stay current when the time comes to use the skills they've eroded so badly they are pretty much useless.

It also takes a certain mindset – everyone says they can do harm to another person when the time comes but not everyone can. It's a decision you must come to peace with far before you must act on it and that peace and the mere act of making the decision oly comes with training. I've been teaching/training for nearly 10 years, I'm a second degree black-belt and I've made my decision but when the time comes even I may hesitate or not be able to do it – the point is even after having come to terms with what I might do I still do not know what I'll do because, thankfully, I've not been tested.

I'm not saying it's worthless to train FA in martial arts I'm saying it's much more involved than learning a few "moves" and then expecting to be able to dis-arm a fanatic who has no problem sacrificing his or her own life. The program has to be an ongiong (at the weekly level and certainly no longer than the monthly level) program of training and practice for it to be truly effective.

In other words the FAs that participated would have to become martial artists who are also FAs. Unlike what I fear will probably be the case where it's FA's who know a litlle martial arts. This is one case where the saying "know enough to be dangerous" is literally true.

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I agree with what you are saying, but I think it depends on what is actually being taught as well. Many MA's are so intricate it takes years to learn and actually be effective. Now I'm a grappler and fight MMA, I have watched many people get fluent with submission in 1/10 the time( at least) that it would take someone to be "decent" at a Asian martial Art or any kind of striking. Plus, you really dont have to exhibit much power since it is your bodyweight VS. someones windpipe or joint. Perfect for close quarters, as I have seen many little 110 pound girls choke out some big dudes. Or we can just clone a bunch of MTSU Av8ters and put one on each and every flight. I bet nobody is gonna fu$% eith that crew when they walk in and see him staring into their eyesLOL
 
Re: Don\'t mess with Flight Attendants

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Especially one particular video (I think you can remember the one I'm talking about JT!)

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I have nightmares about it.

"Jump Jump! Don't take anything with you!!!!"

"You! Go THAT way!"

"Jump Jump! Don't take anything with you!!!"
 
Re: Don\'t mess with Flight Attendants

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with what you are saying, but I think it depends on what is actually being taught as well. Many MA's are so intricate it takes years to learn and actually be effective. Now I'm a grappler and fight MMA, I have watched many people get fluent with submission in 1/10 the time( at least) that it would take someone to be "decent" at a Asian martial Art or any kind of striking. Plus, you really dont have to exhibit much power since it is your bodyweight VS. someones windpipe or joint. Perfect for close quarters, as I have seen many little 110 pound girls choke out some big dudes. Or we can just clone a bunch of MTSU Av8ters and put one on each and every flight. I bet nobody is gonna fu$% eith that crew when they walk in and see him staring into their eyesLOL

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It took me only one year (going at least once a week, maybe two or three) to reach Shodan ("1st degree" blackbelt) in my art – and that is a faily common length of time in this art. All "blackbelt" means anyway is that you've pretty much "mastered" the basics. But, one year, as you know, is extremely fast for a "real" martial art. But it still took a year of dedicated training and effort on my part to reach that level.

I'm not saying that FAs need to learn an entire system ... or what system ... but whatever they are taught it has to be more than the equivalent of a few "self defense" seminars.

And MQ .... unfortunatley in this instance nothing would be better than instilling a sense of false accomplishment or knowledge! Trust me.
 
Re: Don\'t mess with Flight Attendants

Speaking as a flight attendant, I see this:

I see myself standing in front of the cockpit door, and some nut is rushing me with his hands/gun/boxcutter whatever. At that point, it's defend myself or die. Absolutly anything that I have learned/been taught regarding personal safety is going to, at that moment, be of great use to me.

When I was flying, I was willing to protect that cockpit with my life. (I know that's easy to say on a chatboard, but belive, me, after 9/11, it's something I thought about a great deal) I am in favor of any training that will give FAs tools to help them.
 
Re: Don\'t mess with Flight Attendants

[ QUOTE ]
I have nightmares about it.

"Jump Jump! Don't take anything with you!!!!"

"You! Go THAT way!"

"Jump Jump! Don't take anything with you!!!"

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I've had my share of nightmares about that one!
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Actually, though, the one I was referring to was a certain security video........think planes on strings, Pee-Wee Herman, and the Alamo...........
 
Re: Don\'t mess with Flight Attendants

MQA before the altercation begins, you have got to get a little ghetto. Raise that index finger and shake if from left to right, and say,"Oh no you didnt"
 
Re: Don\'t mess with Flight Attendants

[ QUOTE ]
"When in doubt choke em out"

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[ QUOTE ]
MQA before the altercation begins, you have got to get a little ghetto. Raise that index finger and shake if from left to right, and say,"Oh no you didnt"

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you must be a cop......
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I say we give FA's tazzzzzzer training and let them carry a tazzzzzzzer.
 
Re: Don\'t mess with Flight Attendants

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
"When in doubt choke em out"

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
MQA before the altercation begins, you have got to get a little ghetto. Raise that index finger and shake if from left to right, and say,"Oh no you didnt"

[/ QUOTE ]

you must be a cop......
smirk.gif



I say we give FA's tazzzzzzer training and let them carry a tazzzzzzzer.

[/ QUOTE ]

LMFAO did you ever see the jackass episode when they were tazering Johny KNoxville? Oh man hilarious
 
Re: Don\'t mess with Flight Attendants

[ QUOTE ]



I say we give FA's tazzzzzzer training and let them carry a tazzzzzzzer.

[/ QUOTE ]

LMFAO did you ever see the jackass episode when they were tazering Johny KNoxville? Oh man hilarious

[/ QUOTE ]



LOL, one of my fav jackass moments
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