Do you guys agree with this assessment? v.HOLDING

GnW

GnW

New Member
The question posed to me (a lowly ATC Trainee) by a friend from school, who is a CFI, was "When would an aircraft be considered Established in a hold?" This is the best I could come up with :banghead:

What do you guys think?


First, we know that: "The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without a specific ATC request:
1. At all times.
(f) The time and altitude or flight level upon reaching a holding fix or point to which cleared. "

Next, we find:
"The Pilot/Controller Glossary defines Established as "To be stable or fixed on a ROUTE, ROUTE SEGMENT, altitude, heading, etc."

Thirdly, (AIM 5-3-7),
"When approaching the holding fix from anywhere in sector (a), the parallel entry procedure would be to turn to a heading to PARALLEL the HOLDING COURSE (IE NOT ESTABLISHED) outbound on the nonholding side for one minute, turn in the direction of the holding pattern through more than 180 degrees, and return to the holding fix or intercept the holding course inbound."

The teardrop entry is in the same vein: "The teardrop entry procedure would be to fly to the fix, turn outbound to a heading for a 30 degree teardrop entry within the pattern (on the holding side) for a period of one minute, then turn in the direction of the holding pattern to INTERCEPT (IE STABLE ON A FIXED ROUTE. ESTABLISHED) the inbound holding course."

A direct entry would be the easiest answer. Upon reaching the holding fix, you are established.

"While other entry procedures may enable the aircraft to ENTER (IE NOT ESTABLISHED) the holding pattern and remain within protected airspace, the parallel, teardrop and direct entries are the procedures for entry and holding recommended by the FAA."

So basically, you could say that you're established after turning inbound after a teardrop or parallel entry. You have met both criteria; you have crossed the holding fix, and are on a published portion of the pattern. With the direct entry, you would be established upon reaching/crossing the holding fix. If you wanted a simple explanation that were true for all three (though not technically accurate), it would be upon reaching/passing the holding fix and beginning the turn outbound.
Click to expand...
 
I have always considered myself established on this inbound leg on a parallel and teardrop entry and after crossing the holding fix on a direct entry...just as you said above. I'm sure it won't be long til someone poops on our parade but that is when I consider myself 'established.'






BTW, Where the Wild Things Are is an awesome book. :rawk:
 
BrewMaster said:
I have always considered myself established on this inbound leg on a parallel and teardrop entry and after crossing the holding fix on a direct entry...just as you said above. I'm sure it won't be long til someone poops on our parade but that is when I consider myself 'established.'
Click to expand...
Here's some potential poop:

The problem is that the FAA does not define what it means to be established =in= the hold, so I'm not sure what value there really is in trying to analyze what a non-official term means. The FAA does discuss when to report entering the hold (upon reaching the clearance limit, i.e., the holding fix), and a whole bunch of people will insist that this also means established.

My personal definition is similar to yours, although on a direct entry, I don't consider myself established until I have a close to centered needle heading inbound.

A couple of references I came across at one time are discussed in an earlier thread that talked about the subject a little (Canadian version of the AIM and an FAA order on separation):

http://forums.jetcareers.com/cfi-corner/69214-reports-required-when-entering-hold.html

btw, those very few times I've been asked to report some point in a hold (rather than the required report for reaching the holding fix) the request has been specific: "Report inbound in the hold"
 
That's actually a very good point. I don't ever remember really being told WHEN I was established, I just "self-considered" mostly because I didn't know. I'm liking what you said with the direct hold, because more or less it really is no different than establishing on the localizer inbound or on the VOR inbound, etc.

Just fly around in that general area, who cares....:)
 
I haven't reported or been asked to report "established" in a hold since the training environment when my CFII was "simulating ATC" and giving me instructions.

I don't think I've ever been prompted to report a hold either, I just report the fix.

-mini
 
GnW said:
who is a CFI, was "When would an aircraft be considered Established in a hold?" This is the best I could come up with
Click to expand...

I proposed to the FAA a while back that they define the term. After some internal research, they came back to me and said they did not see a need to do so. No other explanation.

Since the term is not defined, I make the AIM required entry report upon reaching the holding fix, and no other. If that's not what ATC wanted, then it's their fault for making a meaningless request. So far, no one has complained, though.
 
The only moment I am ever established is inbound on an approach.
The only report required when holding is "entering" the hold, if I remember right. So by thought, I would consider myself "established" in the hold once tracking the inbound course. If asked by ATC to report established in the hold I would report entering & turning inbound or crossing the fix...

Love to know too.
 
I agree that there is no real answer to this one since the term isn't even really defined when it comes to holding. I have said that I'm "established in holding at FLOSY" or whatever, it's always been upon crossing the fix initially. I guess I should say that I've "entered holding at FLOSY," or even just "Holding at FLOSY," to be 100% correct.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top