JaceTheAce
Well-Known Member
Out in the Part 61 world, what do you guys usually do? I've heard of some flight instructors that don't and a few that do.
Do you charge for pre/post briefing?
- Thread starter JaceTheAce
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CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
If it is an in-depth thing, yes. For a quick preview of the flight, no.
PanJet
Well-Known Member
Ditto. Unless we're doing an official ground lesson, I don't usually charge for pre/post flight briefing. In the case of a longer (20-30+min.) pre/post flight briefing that involves a lot more complex teaching, then I usually charge for it. This is fairly infrequent though. I know what it's like to be a student with all the financial burden, and I'm not going to nickel and dime them with short pre/post flight briefings.
These discussions pop up a lot here and you'll find (of course) a lot of differing opinions.
My take - I'm a professional and charge for a professional service. If I am utilizing knowledge or a skill I worked long and hard to attain to teach a student something, I charge.
Reviewing cross country planning before a flight or analyzing a student's performance after a flight is what students pay CFIs to do.
PanJet, if you and I worked at the same school and I charged my students for ALL the time I was being useful as an instructor, and you only charged for flight time, my student, looking after his financial interests, might leave me to go fly with you. This affects my bottom line, and we might have to go to the parking lot to talk it out.
Seriously though, "nickel and diming" is a poor term to use in my opinion - it implies sort of a dishonesty or lack of integrity when it is anything but.
MidlifeFlyer
Well-Known Member
I charge a fixed fee for a "normal" (non cross country) lesson based on a 2-hour block of time. It's just easier for both me an the student to not have to worry about countiing minutes and seconds.
There are many ways to charge that are fair to both CFI and student. No one method is inherently fairer than another. The key is being up-front about it and charging an overall fee that both this is fair.
There are many ways to charge that are fair to both CFI and student. No one method is inherently fairer than another. The key is being up-front about it and charging an overall fee that both this is fair.
meritflyer
Well-Known Member
Sure do. Its still instruction isnt it?
PGT
Well-Known Member
My instructor does, I don't have a problem with it because it's part of his job.
I should add that my CFI told me to come out ahead of time and pre-flight the plane so I wouldn't be paying him to stand around and watch me do it, time that could be used going over what we would do that day or flying time.
I should add that my CFI told me to come out ahead of time and pre-flight the plane so I wouldn't be paying him to stand around and watch me do it, time that could be used going over what we would do that day or flying time.
bike21
9-5 Ruins Lives
I did nearly every time. Usually a minimum of .3 of ground each flight. I figure I was with my student EASILY 9 minutes before and after each flight. I never liked the CFIs that always said, "I'll meet you at the plane" (while I sit here and do nothing). I always tried to be present as much as possible for the preflight and hang out to help tie it down. The only time when I didn't charge is when I was running late, HAD to send them out to preflight on their own, get a bite to eat, etc. The life of a CFI can be quite hectic at times. However when things were running smooth and my time management plans were working, then yeah, I was there and charging for my services.
Also, there should always be a thorough brief and de-brief. If there isn't students simply don't progress as well. Hence a solid .3 of ground time.
CFIs are professionals and should be compensated as such. Simple as that. Even if it is .1 ground.
Also, there should always be a thorough brief and de-brief. If there isn't students simply don't progress as well. Hence a solid .3 of ground time.
CFIs are professionals and should be compensated as such. Simple as that. Even if it is .1 ground.
Blip16
Well-Known Member
yup my standard is .3 pre/post time, if i spend more time than that i charge accordingly. If i have to help preflight, then i charge for that too, but i generally just let my students do the pre flight while i stand around and BS with other employees (and no i don't charge them for that time because i am NOT instructing, so they shouldn't be charged for that)
PanJet
Well-Known Member
PanJet, if you and I worked at the same school and I charged my students for ALL the time I was being useful as an instructor, and you only charged for flight time, my student, looking after his financial interests, might leave me to go fly with you. This affects my bottom line, and we might have to go to the parking lot to talk it out.
I completely understand, but my situation is also a bit different. It sounds like where you work it is normal to charge for pre/post flight briefings, which is fine with me, and I would do the same thing if I worked there. However, it isn't really standard to do that where I work. Most of the time instructors here don't charge at all for pre/post flight briefings, so my charging .5 here and there would probably actually be shooting myself in the foot since I don't know any other instructor that does it here.
You are correct though, and I do charge for stuff like reviewing flight planning, teaching preflight on a new plane, etc. Like I said, however, where I work my superiors are more concerned about saving students' money rather than paying flight instructors (as can be evidenced by our pay rate
), so it's not normal practice to charge a lot other than ground instruction or flight time.Also, I apologize if my term "nickel and diming" implied some sort of dishonesty. I meant no harmful intentions by that statement.
Trust me, I know that aviation is not a business to sell yourself cheap and screw other pilots trying to earn a living. I would never intentionally take away business from other instructors/pilots by selling myself cheap.
Blackhawk
Well-Known Member
If I'm teaching, I charge. If I'm twiddling my thumbs while the student does things that could have been done earlier (W&B, weather, NOTAMS, performance planning), I charge.
If I'm drinking coffee, bsing, telling war stories, etc, I do not charge.
I tell them this up front.
If I'm drinking coffee, bsing, telling war stories, etc, I do not charge.
I tell them this up front.
XLR99
Well-Known Member
Ditto-I usually bill an hour of ground per lesson. If we spend time BS'ing or whatever, I'll deduct it & tell them so.
I completely understand, but my situation is also a bit different. It sounds like where you work it is normal to charge for pre/post flight briefings, which is fine with me, and I would do the same thing if I worked there. However, it isn't really standard to do that where I work. Most of the time instructors here don't charge at all for pre/post flight briefings, so my charging .5 here and there would probably actually be shooting myself in the foot since I don't know any other instructor that does it here.
You are correct though, and I do charge for stuff like reviewing flight planning, teaching preflight on a new plane, etc. Like I said, however, where I work my superiors are more concerned about saving students' money rather than paying flight instructors (as can be evidenced by our pay rate
Also, I apologize if my term "nickel and diming" implied some sort of dishonesty. I meant no harmful intentions by that statement.
Trust me, I know that aviation is not a business to sell yourself cheap and screw other pilots trying to earn a living. I would never intentionally take away business from other instructors/pilots by selling myself cheap.
Its all good. I understand.
jrh
Well-Known Member
where I work my superiors are more concerned about saving students' money rather than paying flight instructors (as can be evidenced by our pay rate
You guys need to organize a strike. Isn't there going to be an instructor shortage there soon anyway? Maybe a full-blown strike isn't realistic, but some serious negotiating would be a good idea. Tell them you're not interested in working this summer without a $5/hour raise--and convince the other CFIs to do the same. If the bosses don't go along with it, start freelancing...I *know* there's a market for it in your area.
But back to the question at hand, no, I don't charge for pre/post-flight briefings. I've gotten lectured in the past here at JC for doing things the way I do, but I have my reasons, so I'm not going to rehash things all over again.
Maybe my policy will change when I start my next job (in June! Woo hoo!). After all, that's the best time to set or change policies--when you're starting somewhere new.
Oh, and PanJet, I'll give you a call tonight. This week's been crazy!
pilotty
Well-Known Member
Heck yes u should charge .3, anything longer than that charged accordingly. I didn't pay more for my aviation education than my undergrad education for nothing. I feel if we are teaching we should be paid what we deserve. Besides that we are all underpaid as CFI's. A friend of mines parents were asking me about flying lessons and how much they cost. When I told them what I cost per hour they both looked at me funny. Then his mother says "don't you think you should charge more than that to teach someone how to fly?! The neighbor charges twice what you do for dance lessons!" I was like...ummm yeah well it's like this.......
JaceTheAce
Well-Known Member
Heck yes u should charge .3, anything longer than that charged accordingly. I didn't pay more for my aviation education than my undergrad education for nothing. I feel if we are teaching we should be paid what we deserve. Besides that we are all underpaid as CFI's. A friend of mines parents were asking me about flying lessons and how much they cost. When I told them what I cost per hour they both looked at me funny. Then his mother says "don't you think you should charge more than that to teach someone how to fly?! The neighbor charges twice what you do for dance lessons!" I was like...ummm yeah well it's like this.......
My saxophone lessons throughout high school were $70 an hour. (he was a highly acclaimed jazz saxophonist though)
bike21
9-5 Ruins Lives
I never did - I sipped my coffee and played Tetris. I charged when we went over the test of course.
