DME Fix Holding

[kryan11]

So I have a scenario that I've had two different answers to and can't find the "answer" to it. I'm trying to clear it up, basically it has to do with the cardinal directions given when being told to hold around a non published DME fix. Do the Cardinal Directions clarify which side of the fix to hold on? Or do they mean to just hold that direction inbound of the fix and then you use the directions of left or right turns to decide which way to turn?

Here's the clearance:

Mesquite 123 from the PHX VOR fly to the TFD VOR and intercept the 12 DME arc to the SE. At the 010 radial turn inbound, then at 10 DME hold SW.

So you fly past the 10 DME fix make a parallel entry, do you hold in a non standard pattern on the west side, or do a standard pattern on the east side?

 

[Karnage]

Cardinal directions are which side of the fix they want you on, so in this case "southwest" of the TFD010/010DME. Since turn's weren't specified I'd turn right in the hold. Basically I'd do this:

 

[kryan11]

Cardinal directions are which side of the fix they want you on, so in this case "southwest" of the TFD010/010DME. Since turn's weren't specified I'd turn right in the hold. Basically I'd do this:
View attachment 35638

I would agree with this if they stated "south". 190 is more southerly than southwest. Southwest seems like they're trying to state the protected side of the fix they want you on. What if it was hold on the 360 radial to the southwest? Would it be the same holding direction?

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

I would agree with this if they stated "south". 190 is more southerly than southwest. Southwest seems like they're trying to state the protected side of the fix they want you on. What if it was hold on the 360 radial to the southwest? Would it be the same holding direction?

@n156499000 has it absolutely right if the instructions are properly given. "hold [cardinal direction]" always tells you where the holding course course lies in relation to the holding fix.

"South" vs "Southwest" based on 10° (which might be off by a number of degrees when you look at it due to magnetic variation and VOR calibration)? No big deal. Close enough. Still in the neighborhood. But I would definitely be surprised to hear "hold [direction] on the 360 or 180 and anything other than North or South.

The correct answer isn't listed in the poll.

 

[Karnage]

I think this is a case of the controller being overly nit-picky in choosing southwest instead of south, and over thinking it on your part. Perhaps this controller only issues "hold south" when directly on a 180 radial. By the same over-thought logic, I was given "hold east of JAROZ intersection on the 070 radial" from LA center yesterday. We came in from the east and made right turns after passing over the fix. If I wanted to over think it since 070 is slightly north of due east should I have made left turns instead? As long as the direction they give you is in the correct quadrant of a compass rose I would just go with it and not over think what they meant.

Long story short, don't over think it. Anything other than 360, 090, 180, or 270 can be considered to be northeast, southeast, southwest, or northwest. And as I tell my students (which they never do but that's another story) when in doubt, ask ATC to clarify.

 

[tcco94]

Ah, my head hurts from all this over thinking. Hold 360 radial southwest? Keep it simple.

The drawing above is what I picture from the clearance you're given.

I teach my students to not even think non-standard turns unless you are specifically GIVEN non-standard turns. If nothing is said to be "left turns" in the hold clearance(or hold published on chart), then don't put it in your picture.

 

[ahsmatt7]

Nevermind....

 

[Eddie_X59]

I am not saying it is incorrect, but I disagree with the drawing that was provided- with that being said, I am not an ATP and I am probably wrong - but that hold appears to be southeast. I would have interpreted it as a non-standard pattern based on ATC instructions, even though it was not explicitly stated as non-standard, then ( hopefully ) I would have asked ATC to clarify the direction of the hold .

Its a great question though, it is possible ATC botched up the clearance. Either they did not realize the instructions resulted in a non-standard pattern, or possibly they just forgot to state left turns, or maybe I need to study more !!

 

[Hacker15e]

I am not saying it is incorrect, but I disagree with the drawing that was provided- with that being said, I am not an ATP and I am probably wrong - but that hold appears to be southeast.

When the instructions say, "Hold southwest," you grab your pencil and draw an arrow originating from the southwest and going into the holding fix. It only identifies which side of the holding fix they want you on (e.g., not on the northeast side).

It has nothing to do with the turn direction (which, unless otherwise stated, is "standard" per the AIM).

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Ah, my head hurts from all this over thinking. Hold 360 radial southwest? Keep it simple.

The drawing above is what I picture from the clearance you're given.

I teach my students to not even think non-standard turns unless you are specifically GIVEN non-standard turns. If nothing is said to be "left turns" in the hold clearance(or hold published on chart), then don't put it in your picture.

Sorry @Eddie_X59, you'll need to go back to the books on holding procedures.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Now that it's been revived, I just realized a few things for the first time:

This was a poll!
Both poll answers are wrong!
While the holding instruction is pretty clear, the arc instruction makes no sense. There's is no PHX VOR. Assuming it's actually, PXR, the instruction does't tell us whether the arc is based on PXR or TFD. Assuming TFD, it doesn't tell us whether the arc begins on the north or south side of TFD.

I can probably guess what was intended. Fly direct toward TDF from either the KPHX airport or the PXR VOR. At PXR 12 DME, intercept the TDF 12 DME arc and fly clockwise to the 010 radial, turn inbound toward TDF and, "Hold southwest of the 10 mile fix on the TDF 010 degree radial," which is @n156499000 's drawing of the hold..

But this just doesn't sound like a real ATC instruction.

 

[Eddie_X59]

Sorry @Eddie_X59, you'll need to go back to the books on holding procedures.

thanks for the replies, I did review so I stand corrected from my original response. I have an app now that tests holding pattern entries.... I have a checkride in 2 weeks so I am glad we had this discussion !