DME arcs with GPS (no brainer, right?)

aviategw

Well-Known Member
I'm hoping that this one falls under the category of a no brainer, but I want JC opinions.

I'm training for a CFII checkride, which I intend to take in an ATP Piper Seminole. The ATP A/C have no DME, but do have two Garmin 430s. In prior aircraft (I took my Instrument checkride in a Civil Air Patrol 182 with DME but no RMI), I'd fly outbound on a radial until I got to half a mile or so before the distance of the DME arc. Then, I'd turn in the appropriate direction to establish myself on the arc. I'd tune in and then center the appropriate radials, usually 10 degrees at a time, until I had flown as far around the arc as I needed to go. I'd lead the turn to my FAC, and all was well. It was a series of small turns, but I got to be pretty good at bracketing a DME arc.

With the Garmin 430, will it be acceptable to simply turn the appropriate direction to keep the distance readout where it should be? I.e., if my DPE wants a 15 mile arc, do I just turn in the direction of the arc and keep the readout as close to 15 as possible?

Related, but: True or False: As long as the panel mounted Garmin 430 GPS is approach certified, I can legally use it in place of DME for arcs.
 
put direct ABC (the VOR station) in the 430 and there's your DME. just make sure that the GPS is in VLOC mode, not GPS. the 430 installations i've ever flown (warriors, arrow, seminoles, a -28R-200 arrow, and an SR20) have no DME....the GPS is the DME. it's a major shortcoming, i think, but that's the way it is.
 
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With the Garmin 430, will it be acceptable to simply turn the appropriate direction to keep the distance readout where it should be? I.e., if my DPE wants a 15 mile arc, do I just turn in the direction of the arc and keep the readout as close to 15 as possible?

Related, but: True or False: As long as the panel mounted Garmin 430 GPS is approach certified, I can legally use it in place of DME for arcs.

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True. Sounds like you've got the idea. Like the above says, as part of your flow make sure the GPS is tuned and set properly. I took my instrument checkride in a C-172 w/o a DME, and the GPS is legal to use in place of it.
 
There is really too much to write in here just to be so basic as to say, yes, you may use the GPS for DME. Just remember you can use the GPS in lieu of DME only if the data card is updated. Additionally, you need to have a GPS that has RAIM or WAAS. Additionally, the AIM says you should put the active waypoint in as GPS WP on the arc.

Also remember that if you have an approach loaded in your GPS it will sequence you to you next waypoint. This means your DME will read as a count down to the waypoint, not necessarily from the VOR/LOC. However, once you turn on to the arc you need to monitor the DME from the VOR/LOC so have that in the VOR or INT page so you can turn to it.

Check out AIM 1 -1-7
 
The DME arc for any aproach is already loaded in the G430. If you select the approach and use the DME arc as the initial fix it will automaticly sequence you through.

Go to garmins website and download their 430 trainer software. Play around for a while with it and soon it will be idiot proof!
 
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The DME arc for any aproach is already loaded in the G430. If you select the approach and use the DME arc as the initial fix it will automaticly sequence you through.

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It is only legal to do this if the approach is titled "VOR or GPS", you cannot fly a DME arc like this unless the approach has "GPS" in the title.

The only legal way to fly a DME arc on a VOR only approach is to put the VOR in the GPS as the 'to' waypoint. If you do this, there is no difference to the pilot when flying the approach compared to using DME. DO NOT SELECT THE 'APPROACH' in the GPS!

Everything you need to know about using the GPS in lieu of DME can be found in section 1-1-20 of the AIM and I suggest that anyone using a GPS must read this.

One thing that is often overlooked is in the 'Restrictions' and it deals with alternates. A non-GPS approach must exist at the alternate when one is required. In addition the non-GPS approaches on which the pilot will rely at the alternate cannot rely on GPS. So you cannot file an airport as an alternate if the approach you plan on using requires DME or ADF if you do not have these in your aircraft.
 
Just to clarify, the regs state that you can use an IFR certified GPS in lieu of DME only if the VOR is the selected way point. This doesn't count if you are flying an approach that uses a DME arc, then you can have the approach loaded an active. However, if you are flying a VOR/DME approach, you cannot have the approach loaded into the GPS to use the DME, only because the GPS will give you mileage to the next waypoint, which may not be the VOR. Get it?
 
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It is only legal to do this if the approach is titled "VOR or GPS", you cannot fly a DME arc like this unless the approach has "GPS" in the title.

The only legal way to fly a DME arc on a VOR only approach is to put the VOR in the GPS as the 'to' waypoint. If you do this, there is no difference to the pilot when flying the approach compared to using DME. DO NOT SELECT THE 'APPROACH' in the GPS!


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So my interest was piqued by this discussion and it caused me to reread the GPS section in the AIM and I see where it states that:
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8. Do not attempt to fly an approach unless the procedure is contained in the current, on-board navigation database and identified as "GPS" on the approach chart. The navigation database may contain information about nonoverlay approach procedures that is intended to be used to enhance position orientation, generally by providing a map, while flying these approaches using conventional NAVAIDs. This approach information should not be confused with a GPS overlay approach (see the receiver operating manual, AFM, or AFM Supplement for details on how to identify these procedures in the navigation database). Flying point to point on the approach does not assure compliance with the published approach procedure.

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Then I went back and read the blurb on the GPS Approach Overlay Program:
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3. The GPS Approach Overlay Program is an authorization for pilots to use GPS avionics under IFR for flying designated nonprecision instrument approach procedures, except LOC, LDA, and simplified directional facility (SDF) procedures. These procedures are now identified by the name of the procedure and "or GPS" (e.g., VOR/DME or GPS RWY 15). Other previous types of overlays have either been converted to this format or replaced with stand-alone procedures. Only approaches contained in the current onboard navigation database are authorized. The navigation database may contain information about nonoverlay approach procedures that is intended to be used to enhance position orientation, generally by providing a map, while flying these approaches using conventional NAVAIDs. This approach information should not be confused with a GPS overlay approach (see the receiver operating manual, AFM, or AFM Supplement for details on how to identify these approaches in the navigation database).



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So my first question is this: Are you able to load a precision approach from the navigation database into the GPS and fly off that?

Second question: Are you able to file as an alternate an airport which only has a ILS/DME and a VOR/DME approach if you only have the GPS in your aircraft?

Third Question: Why are you not legal to load a non-precision approach utilizing only the GPS if the AIM is not regulatory?
 
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So my first question is this: Are you able to load a precision approach from the navigation database into the GPS and fly off that?

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No, GPS on a precision approach, such as an ILS, is to be used only to increase situational awareness. So you are required to put it in VLOC or NAV mode and fly the approach using the appropriate localizer frequency.

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Second question: Are you able to file as an alternate an airport which only has a ILS/DME and a VOR/DME approach if you only have the GPS in your aircraft?

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I believe aircraft have to have another means of navigation besides a GPS.
 
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Second question: Are you able to file as an alternate an airport which only has a ILS/DME and a VOR/DME approach if you only have the GPS in your aircraft?

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No. [ QUOTE ]
(AIM 1-1-21), Aircraft using GPS Navigation equipment under IFR must be equipped with an approved and operational alternate means of navigation appropriate to the flight.

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No, GPS on a precision approach, such as an ILS, is to be used only to increase situational awareness. So you are required to put it in VLOC or NAV mode and fly the approach using the appropriate localizer frequency.


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Just had a DUH! moment. When I read those passages in the AIM that state you aren't able to fly an approach unless its an overlay I was thinking that you couldn't load the approach on the GPS. Oops..
smile.gif
 
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It is only legal to do this if the approach is titled "VOR or GPS", you cannot fly a DME arc like this unless the approach has "GPS" in the title.

The only legal way to fly a DME arc on a VOR only approach is to put the VOR in the GPS as the 'to' waypoint. If you do this, there is no difference to the pilot when flying the approach compared to using DME. DO NOT SELECT THE 'APPROACH' in the GPS!

[/ QUOTE ] I will tone this down somewhat and say that it is ok to fly the arc in GPS mode, but not the actual approach. You should transition over to the correct navaid prior to the FAF. That is how it is often done in larger aircraft with a FMS (This is easier as larger aircraft will have DME in addition to the FMS). This is somewhat of a grey area, as to where the approach actually starts. I would argue that you must obviously be using the correct navaid prior to crossing the FAF.

From a practical standpoint, unless you have 2 GPS units, you should just fly the approach by putting the VOR in the GPS as a waypoint, as this is the way it is supposed to be flown. If you have 2 GPS units, you could fly the ARC on one unit and then have the VOR in another for correct DME during the actual approach.
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So my interest was piqued by this discussion and it caused me to reread the GPS section in the AIM and I see where it states that:
Quote:
8. Do not attempt to fly an approach unless the procedure is contained in the current, on-board navigation database and identified as "GPS" on the approach chart. The navigation database may contain information about nonoverlay approach procedures that is intended to be used to enhance position orientation, generally by providing a map, while flying these approaches using conventional NAVAIDs. This approach information should not be confused with a GPS overlay approach (see the receiver operating manual, AFM, or AFM Supplement for details on how to identify these procedures in the navigation database). Flying point to point on the approach does not assure compliance with the published approach procedure.



Then I went back and read the blurb on the GPS Approach Overlay Program:
Quote:
3. The GPS Approach Overlay Program is an authorization for pilots to use GPS avionics under IFR for flying designated nonprecision instrument approach procedures , except LOC, LDA, and simplified directional facility (SDF) procedures. These procedures are now identified by the name of the procedure and "or GPS" (e.g., VOR/DME or GPS RWY 15). Other previous types of overlays have either been converted to this format or replaced with stand-alone procedures. Only approaches contained in the current onboard navigation database are authorized. The navigation database may contain information about nonoverlay approach procedures that is intended to be used to enhance position orientation, generally by providing a map, while flying these approaches using conventional NAVAIDs. This approach information should not be confused with a GPS overlay approach (see the receiver operating manual, AFM, or AFM Supplement for details on how to identify these approaches in the navigation database).


So my first question is this: Are you able to load a precision approach from the navigation database into the GPS and fly off that?

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No, by definition a precision approach includes vertical guidance, and these cannot yet be flown with a GPS, although it is coming in the form of WAAS approaches. The GNS480 was recently granted WAAS certification, but I am not sure if any WAAS approaches have been authorized for use (a few do exist).

Unless the approach includes 'GPS' in the title, you should not fly the approach in GPS mode, you should use conventional navaids and do the approach the old fashoned way. Most overlay approaches are being replaced by GPS only approaches, and more of the overlays disappear with each revision of the approach plates.

No localizer based approaches were ever included in the overlay program and it has never been legal to shoot these using the GPS. This also applied to the LDA which is really no different than a localizer in most respects. From the wording in the AIM it sounds like it was the same for the SDF.

From a practical standpoint it was often confusing to load an approach into the GPS if you had to fly it using regular navaids anyway. The GPS will not give your distance from the navaid if you do this, and will instead count down to each waypoint on the approach. I find it is easier to just put in the navaid so I have accurate distance information displayed that agrees witht he DME distance on the approach plate. Since most of my instrument flying was done in aircraft with a RMI, I would also put in the outermarker if the ILS did not have a LOM or DME. This also works good for NDB approaches.

It is kind of funny that the FAA does not want you to use a GPS to do NDB or VOR approaches when the same agency is actually naming DME or cross bearing waypoints with 5 letter designators on all the approach plates. They are doing the same thing for the MAP on approaches where the MAP is the threshold, many are now labeled identical to a GPS approach.
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Second question: Are you able to file as an alternate an airport which only has a ILS/DME and a VOR/DME approach if you only have the GPS in your aircraft?

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No, this is covered in the AIM. If you plan on using an approach that requires an ADF, DME or any other navaid, you have to have the required avionics (and the navaid and the avionics have to be operational).
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Third Question: Why are you not legal to load a non-precision approach utilizing only the GPS if the AIM is not regulatory?

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You can load whatever you want. You just have to actually fly the approach using the required navaids.

Some will argue the AIM is not regulatory, but for all intents and purposes it is. Advisory circulars are no different. If the FAA included everything in the FARs they would be so huge that you would need a hand cart to lug them around.

The FARs contain the basic information. The AIM and the ACs actually explain what the FARs mean and give regulatory guidance. It is one thing for the FAA to allow GPS to be installed and used in aircraft. But there are TSO requirements for the design of the GPS units (TSO C-129), ACs that tell the mechanics how to install them (AC 20-138) and the AIM (1-1-20) that explains to us how we are supposed to use it.
 
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Just to clarify, the regs state that you can use an IFR certified GPS in lieu of DME only if the VOR is the selected way point. This doesn't count if you are flying an approach that uses a DME arc, then you can have the approach loaded an active. However, if you are flying a VOR/DME approach, you cannot have the approach loaded into the GPS to use the DME, only because the GPS will give you mileage to the next waypoint, which may not be the VOR. Get it?

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Actually they state that you can have either the DME station set as the waypoint, or the named fix from the database. So you can load the approach.
 
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