DME Arc question

FlyboyZR1

FlyboyZR1

New Member
If you're cleared for an approach and nowhere near an IAF, can you legally just hop onto the arc at any point and follow it in, or do you have to proceed all the way to an IAF first? My guess is that if you're being radar vectored you could pick up the arc at any point, but if not then you must proceed to an IAF.
 
FlyboyZR1 said:
If you're cleared for an approach and nowhere near an IAF, can you legally just hop onto the arc at any point and follow it in, or do you have to proceed all the way to an IAF first? My guess is that if you're being radar vectored you could pick up the arc at any point, but if not then you must proceed to an IAF.
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You could be vectored onto the arc at any position ATC deems fit. If you were cleared for the approach w/out being vectored you'd proceed to an initial approach fix, arc, intercept the final approach course and fly it.
 
meritflyer said:
You could be vectored onto the arc at any position ATC deems fit. If you were cleared for the approach w/out being vectored you'd proceed to an initial approach fix, arc, intercept the final approach course and fly it.
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Just joining an arc 'somewhere' along it is a bad idea...if ATC ever tries to do that, which i doubt they will, i'd say it would be best to decline it.
 
Correct. There is a FAA AGC letter of interp that says you must start at an IAP absent radar vectors to the FAC.
 
AlWaYs HiGh said:
Just joining an arc 'somewhere' along it is a bad idea...if ATC ever tries to do that, which i doubt they will, i'd say it would be best to decline it.
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Granted it is in a training environment, but It happens all the time here in MSP. At KFCM if you are W/SW of the field they will vector you onto the Arc. Shoot, we request it that way.......The IAF is the 170 radial and if I am W/SW of the field, I have no desire to waste the time/gas/$$$ to hit the IAF at 170. Give me vectors, Ill ride the arc and shoot the approach...
 
seagull said:
Correct. There is a FAA AGC letter of interp that says you must start at an IAP absent radar vectors to the FAC.
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Which is total BS (not you Gul, the ruling), I can be vectored to anywhere on a approach (within reason) but I cannot intercept an ARC anywhere but the defined beginings. Total crap, luckily I have never had to use an ARC in the realworld.
 
Dugie8 said:
Total crap, luckily I have never had to use an ARC in the realworld.
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Interesting thought: the way something I've never done in real life works in real life is "total crap."

Seagull, do you have that particular interpretation handy? I've seen one that suggests what you say, but it's limited to a non-radar environment.
 
JEP said:
Granted it is in a training environment, but It happens all the time here in MSP. At KFCM if you are W/SW of the field they will vector you onto the Arc. Shoot, we request it that way.......The IAF is the 170 radial and if I am W/SW of the field, I have no desire to waste the time/gas/$$$ to hit the IAF at 170. Give me vectors, Ill ride the arc and shoot the approach...
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I heard about someone flying the VOR/DME-27 into ANE. He was flying southbound, and when he was cleared for the approach, he started to fly back north toward the IAF. ATC asked where he thought he was going -- the controller expected him to just join the arc southbound.

-C.
 
AlWaYs HiGh said:
Just joining an arc 'somewhere' along it is a bad idea...if ATC ever tries to do that, which i doubt they will, i'd say it would be best to decline it.
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Unless I'm getting paid by the hour I'm not going to go out of my way to hit an IAF if I don't have to. One of the nice things about an arc is that you can join at any point while being radar vectored.

Thanks for the replies everyone.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Interesting thought: the way something I've never done in real life works in real life is "total crap."
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Well, in my opinion it is. We get vectored to approach courses all the time, but I can't get vectored to an ARC, total crap, luckily, I have not done them ever in "non" training flying.

No need to get snippy.
 
Dugie8 said:
Well, in my opinion it is. We get vectored to approach courses all the time, but I can't get vectored to an ARC, total crap, luckily, I have not done them ever in "non" training flying.

No need to get snippy.
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Sorry.

Ever think that there's a reason you have not done one in a non-training flight? Chances are that if ATC is using radar vectors, it will be to a final approach course and not to an arc anyway - faster and easier for you and for them. (I'm curious, there's a bunch of piloting experience here - has anyone here received radar vectors to a DME arc in the "real world?")

I suspect that if you're in circumstances where you'd =need= to actually use an arc, the chances are pretty good that there is an obstruction or airspace issue that would make interception other than at the IAF problematic anyway. Besides, ever notice that those arc IAFs tend to be right on the airway or feeder route you'd be approaching on anyway.

(BTW, I still don't know if vectors to the arc are prohibited or not)
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
(I'm curious, there's a bunch of piloting experience here - has anyone here received radar vectors to a DME arc in the "real world?")
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Only on a practice approach did I have vectors to an arc. I was told something to the extent of this "Cessna 1234, turn left heading X, vectors for the 10 DME arc east off VOR X"

I complied. About half way into the arc, I was given a new heading to intercept the ILS. My belief was it was for spacing.
 
meritflyer said:
Only on a practice approach
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That's what I mean. Me too. For practice.

I don't even mean whether folks were vectored to the arc other than to an IAF. Just the use of a DME arc (other than for practice) where vectors were involved in the approach to the arc itself rather than a clearance via an airway or transition route.

In the real (not for practice world), Dugie suggests that if ATC can't vector you to intercept the arc other than at an IAP, it's "crap."

I'm wondering whether the "vectors to the arc" scenario even really exists outside of practice to begin with. If radar vectors are available and being used, I have a hard time figuring out why anyone - ATC or a pilot, would fly an arc, except for practice.
 
The only scenario that I can think of where this might happen, "in the real world" might be to an airport with a really strange approach like this: http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0608/05222VDTZ15.PDF (VOR/DME Rwy 15 at Martin State, Baltimore MD).

The whole approach is an arc, so I wonder if you could be vectored to "final" right on the arc?

I don't have an answer for this, just muddying the waters.

I have picked up approaches on the arc at points other than the IAF, but again, it was in the training environment. And I have to ask specifically for what I want to be able to do it. Haven't ever done it "in the real world".
 
I asked this question once when visiting phoenix tracon. He gave me a funny look and said "i guess its possible, but have never seen it done".
 
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