Dihedral and Lateral Stability

troopernflight

Well-Known Member
Can someone please explain why when a wing drops that it gives that wing a higher angle of attack than the raised wing? The FAA does a horrible job of explaining this, other than just to tell you that this is what happens. I just don't understand it. Thanks.
 
This link has a pretty decent diagram to show how the low wing has a higher AOA during a sideslip: http://www.mnbigbirds.com/images/PDF Files/Dihedral_Art.pdf

From what I've read (I'm no aero engineer), anhedral is necessary on a lot of high wing aircraft due to the overall dihedral effect. Elevation of the wings relative to CG, sweep back, and location of the tail surfaces all come together to provide an effective dihedral for lateral stability. Too much dihedral effect can supposedly decrease maneuverability, as well as increase Dutch roll.
 
Yes, and I don't know why the Falcon has an anhedral stab. Sorry I didn't speak to my lack of knowledge with regards to the Falcon.
 
"An airplane without dihedral and neutral in all of the above forces will fly hands-off in level flight
and very slowly turn into an ever-tightening spiral towards the ground."

Why will it be fine in cruise but spiral down low?
 
Pure sex appeal? :)
This is pure sex. More beta!
69968_1302415438.jpg
 
Can someone please explain why when a wing drops that it gives that wing a higher angle of attack than the raised wing? The FAA does a horrible job of explaining this, other than just to tell you that this is what happens. I just don't understand it. Thanks.
I think I know what you're getting at, and I believe I could explain it, but this video will do a much better job. Fascinating stuff actually. If you understand this concept, you will understand why airplanes spin.

http://apstraining.com/about-us/sample-video-online-training-session/day-8-role-of-roll-damping/
 
From what I've read (I'm no aero engineer), anhedral is necessary aircraft due 'Too much' to the overall dihedral effect.

Ok so I manipulated your response slightly. You're spot on though, except for linking it to high wing birds. The vertical orientation of the wing, high wing vs low wing, comprises roughly 3 to 5 degrees of dihedral effect. In the design process various conditions are quantitatively compared to a degree of dihedral. We know dihedral as the degrees of upward sweep a wing has.

The effect of dihedral, as you accurately point out, effect lateral stability. More dihedral effect equates to greater lateral stability. More stability means less controllability; this part is stability and control 101. That is, stability and control is a spectrum, if you have more control you have less stability and vice versa.

Furthermore you have the coupled effects of dutch roll and spiral divergence. An aircraft with a dominating lateral stability will exhibit dutch role characteristics. Think v-tail bonanza, lacking a vertical rudder meant less yaw stability. Or in the case of a delta wing aircraft, lateral stability's increase is proportional to the angle of sweep back and the lift coefficient. At zero lift, or zero angle of attack, there is no dihedral effect. However, at high lift coefficients, such as during landing, an aircraft with a large sweep angle can exhibit too much dihedral effect.

To sum that up. You're spot on in your analysis, just remember that the vertical location of the wing merely contributes to dihedral effect; it is not the sole reason for requiring anhedral. It's the role of the designer to ensure there is not too much dihedral effect. The primary contributors to this effect are sweep back, vertical location of the wing, and dihedral/anhedral of the lifting surfaces.

In the case of the falcon jet, if a wing produces a high lift coefficient and has a large degree of sweep, even though it is a low wing, it may have too much dihedral effect. As a result anhedral or a straight wing might be necessary to achieve desired performance. Just to nit pick, if you view the falcon aircraft in flight you'll note that the main wing has a slight degree of dihedral when compared to sitting on the ramp.


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@troopernflight,

Have a look at this: http://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/handbooks_manuals/aviation/media/00-80T-80.pdf

Page 297 is of importance. The first image is the answer to your confusion. The image completely ignores the idea of relative wind and a forward moving aircraft. Instead it's a wing, shaped like the letter 'v' with a wind striking it from the side. In the case of this side moving component of wind the upward swept wing has a clear positive angle of attack. The downward swept wing has a clear negative angle of attack.

Think for a moment an aircraft making a left turn, but the pilot does not use any rudder. We know this will cause the nose to swing right and some component of the relative wind will now move sideways from left to right across the aircrafts wing. For a moment, imagine that airplane doesn't have a fuselage. Instead it is just a wing. Look again to the picture on page 297 of that V shape with the relative wind. Here is what's happening, imagine the horizontal line as the relative wind:

  • Whole wing: ____ V Here the left wing has a positive angle of attack, look:
  • Left wing: ____ \ Here the wind is striking the bottom of this wing, giving it a positive angle. Where as the right wing has a negative angle, look:
  • Right wing: ____/ Finally, here the right wing is experiencing wind striking the top of it's surface, similar to that of an airplane flying inverted. Or, a negative angle of attack.

I apologize for the crude pictures, hopefully with the reference picture from AFNA on page 297 you can see what is meant by these first grade representations. If it's still unclear please say so, I will draw up something more vividly accurate on a sketch pad for you.
 
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This link has a pretty decent diagram to show how the low wing has a higher AOA during a sideslip: http://www.mnbigbirds.com/images/PDF Files/Dihedral_Art.pdf

For what it's worth I'd be very careful taking much of what you read in this article as fact. The vector diagrams he used, from another source mind you, are pretty good. However, quite a few of the concepts he attempts to describe are not accurate. You'd do better to read the lateral stability pages in AFNA.

I delayed on this reply because I wanted to verify with an old JC friend as to my thoughts on this sources accuracy. Here is a snippet of his response: "There are a few things that people can say that immediately marks them as a dilettante. One of them is by making inappropriate references to centrifugal force. Another is the 'pendulum effect'."

On top of these big ones there is linking swept wing's lateral stability issues to cruise flight. At high speeds, low Cl, the stability contribution of a delta wing is extremely low. Remember what I mentioned last post: Lateral stability contributions from a swept wing aircraft are directly proportional to lift coefficient.

FWIW The idea of pendulum effect is so easy grasped and accepted as truth because we all understand how a pendulum works. The weight rocks back and forth around a fixed point, or a hinge, that the pendulum is attached to. Last I checked an airplane rotates around the center of gravity, not around some hinge above or below the CG. ;)
 
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I delayed on this reply because I wanted to verify with an old JC friend as to my thoughts on this sources accuracy. Here is a snippet of his response: "There are a few things that people can say that immediately marks them as a dilettante. One of them is by making inappropriate references to centrifugal force. Another is the 'pendulum effect'."

That sounds like a Tgrayson comment, if so, tell him to come back. I loved reading his responses to technical questions.
 
That sounds like a Tgrayson comment, if so, tell him to come back. I loved reading his responses to technical questions.


I've tried. Unfortunately a need to know vs have to know argument, where a few who will remain unanimous, voiced complete lack of respect tainted the waters. I didn't return for over a year from the same event, maybe one day he will return as well. Someday, hopefully, others will realize that there is a third option; want to know. And, those that want to know often go unspoken.

@troopernflight So I've done some more reading and found a variety of answers. In one source it is mentioned that Prandtl discovered that the air deflected downward is of a circular diameter that is equivalent to the wing span. However, that same source mentions downwash dissipating at some distance behind the aircraft. Where by another source mentions that, if a device were sensitive enough, it could register the downwash of an airplane passing over miles above.

It is my standing that the impact of a passing wing is not so easily quantified. Its effect is dependent on the level of accuracy one wishes to measure. AFNA points out that the impact at wingspan length is 1.4 percent. This suggests that at some distance higher there exists an impact, but would you really care about less than a 1 percent impact at some higher altitude?
 
I've tried. Unfortunately a need to know vs have to know argument, where a few who will remain unanimous, voiced complete lack of respect tainted the waters. I didn't return for over a year from the same event, maybe one day he will return as well. Someday, hopefully, others will realize that there is a third option; want to know. And, those that want to know often go unspoken.

@troopernflight So I've done some more reading and found a variety of answers. In one source it is mentioned that Prandtl discovered that the air deflected downward is of a circular diameter that is equivalent to the wing span. However, that same source mentions downwash dissipating at some distance behind the aircraft. Where by another source mentions that, if a device were sensitive enough, it could register the downwash of an airplane passing over miles above.

It is my standing that the impact of a passing wing is not so easily quantified. Its effect is dependent on the level of accuracy one wishes to measure. AFNA points out that the impact at wingspan length is 1.4 percent. This suggests that at some distance higher there exists an impact, but would you really care about less than a 1 percent impact at some higher altitude?

That sucks, tell him to come back and to ignore whoever it was he had an issue with. He was a valuable member with the ability to explain complex scenarios in a way that made them easy to grasp.
 
That sucks, tell him to come back and to ignore whoever it was he had an issue with. He was a valuable member with the ability to explain complex scenarios in a way that made them easy to grasp.

Agreed, while I try, I fall way short when compared to him.
 
Agreed, while I try, I fall way short when compared to him.

I disagree, your explanation in the other thread was excellent. But we can never have enough people on here willing to pass on knowledge and help us all improve.
 
Where by another source mentions that, if a device were sensitive enough, it could register the downwash of an airplane passing over miles above.
At what point would the effect of downwash not be calculated. I think that within a couple thousand of feet the air would be undisturbed.
 
At what point would the effect of downwash not be calculated.

I would agree we don't have the tools to calculate it at such a distance, but just because we can't calculate it doesn't mean it isn't happening. I'll see if I can get you the specific quote tomorrow, I drew this quote from memory of a past discussion on this topic. The quote is from the book Mechanics of Flight.

If you consider that sound is nothing more than wave similar to the waves created by downwash it seems more believable. We often hear jet engines miles above because it's wave is in a frequency we can audibly identify. If that motion can reach us why can't the disturbance of downwash reach us?
 
I would agree we don't have the tools to calculate it at such a distance, but just because we can't calculate it doesn't mean it isn't happening. I'll see if I can get you the specific quote tomorrow, I drew this quote from memory of a past discussion on this topic. The quote is from the book Mechanics of Flight.

If you consider that sound is nothing more than wave similar to the waves created by downwash it seems more believable. We often hear jet engines miles above because it's wave is in a frequency we can audibly identify. If that motion can reach us why can't the disturbance of downwash reach us?
Yes very true.
 
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