departing in ifr conditions at uncontrolled airport

[captainphil]

I asked my CFII however I am still not to certain and need some help. When you are flying under part 91 and departing from an uncontrolled field in actual IMC , other than looking at the obstruction features ahead of you on a sectional or your IFR enroute low altitude chart how do you know from the moment your wheels leave the ground to the moment you punch the clouds that you are clear of obstacles until you get on your route? He said that you just maintain runway heading until you reach traffic pattern altitude is that all you really need to do? That leads me to my next question , once you are at traffic pattern altitude and start your turn on course do you just go by the OROCA ? at controlled airports they usually have SIDS but my airport is uncontrolled so it does not. I havent really touched this topic much with my instructor and im kind of lost ( no pun intended). Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

I asked my CFII however I am still not to certain and need some help. When you are flying under part 91 and departing from an uncontrolled field in actual IMC , other than looking at the obstruction features ahead of you on a sectional or your IFR enroute

ODP (obstacle departure procedures). They are at the front of the Terminal Procedures (plates). There may also be a minimum climb gradient you are responsible for meeting (otherwise 200'/NM). If it is IMC, you need to follow the ODP.

EDIT: What airport are you talking about?

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Once you enter controlled airspace, you have to comply with your clearance. So climb and then get on whatever course you were cleared for. If you are flying off route, get to the OROCA ASAP, like you said.

 

[akmountaineer]

I asked my CFII however I am still not to certain and need some help. When you are flying under part 91 and departing from an uncontrolled field in actual IMC , other than looking at the obstruction features ahead of you on a sectional or your IFR enroute low altitude chart how do you know from the moment your wheels leave the ground to the moment you punch the clouds that you are clear of obstacles until you get on your route? He said that you just maintain runway heading until you reach traffic pattern altitude is that all you really need to do? That leads me to my next question , once you are at traffic pattern altitude and start your turn on course do you just go by the OROCA ? at controlled airports they usually have SIDS but my airport is uncontrolled so it does not. I havent really touched this topic much with my instructor and im kind of lost ( no pun intended). Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

You can look for a published ODP (obstacle departure procedure) - sort of a dumbed down SID published in the TERPS book.

 

[akmountaineer]

ODP (obstacle departure procedures). They are at the front of the Terminal Procedures (plates). There may also be a minimum climb gradient you are responsible for meeting (otherwise 200'/NM). If it is IMC, you need to follow the ODP.

OK, Beagle's a faster typer than me.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

You can look for a published ODP (obstacle departure procedure)

Not only can, but must. If you are IMC on departure, even with a vector SID, you still need to comply with the ODP first.

I'll give you an example (actually happened to me.) Departing KTPA runway 9, TAMPA FOUR departure. The SID is climb heading 090, Thence... vectors and maintain 3000'

So departure asks me why I'm not turning at 100' (not uncommon at a busy airport). But wait! You can't, there is an ODP for Rwy 9 - 094 to 800' before turning.

If you are going to do something stupid and depart zero/zero, best to be on top of this stuff

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

Not only can, but must. If you are IMC on departure, even with a vector SID, you still need to comply with the ODP first.

Want to tell me where it says you must follow an ODP if you are operating under part 91? I'm not 100% on that, and can't find where's its at in the regulations.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

Want to tell me where it says you must follow an ODP if you are operating under part 91? I'm not 100% on that, and can't find where's its at in the regulations.

I'm not 100% either. I know ATC can vector you off of a DP, but you still must maintain the 200'/NM. They all assume 35' at the runway end and 400' on rwy heading unless noted otherwise.

By "must," I mean you are not assured obstacle clearance if you don't follow it. Looking to see if there are any rules though.

EDIT: I can't find any legal requirement to follow it either, except for commercial ops.

 

[KSCessnaDriver]

I'm not 100% either. I know ATC can vector you off of a DP, but you still must maintain the 200'/NM. They all assume 35' at the runway end and 400' on rwy heading unless noted otherwise.

By "must," I mean you are not assured obstacle clearance if you don't follow it. Looking to see if there are any rules though.

Yeah, I looked through the Instrument Flying Handbook and Instrumet Procedures Handbook, and both say that unless an ODP is assigned by ATC, that ODP's are pilot's option to fly, even in less than VFR conditions. (Page 2-18 in the IPH)

 

[JLF]

Referencing what to fly the Instrument Procedures Handbook says

When you accept a clearance to depart using a SID or radar vectors, ATC is responsible for traffic separation. ATC is also responsible for obstacle clearance. When departing with a SID, ATC expects you to fly the procedure as charted because the procedure design considers obstacle clearance.

It then goes on to say that if you wish to fly the ODP to file it in the remarks section to avoid pilot/controller misunderstandings.

 

[PropDriver]

Not only can, but must. If you are IMC on departure, even with a vector SID, you still need to comply with the ODP first.

I'll give you an example (actually happened to me.) Departing KTPA runway 9, TAMPA FOUR departure. The SID is climb heading 090, Thence... vectors and maintain 3000'

So departure asks me why I'm not turning at 100' (not uncommon at a busy airport). But wait! You can't, there is an ODP for Rwy 9 - 094 to 800' before turning.

If you are going to do something stupid and depart zero/zero, best to be on top of this stuff

Where does it say that? I always thought that a SID had priority over an ODP (if assigned the SID) since the SID had obstacle clearance built into the procedure. It makes sense to stay on the runway heading till 400 AGL but then I would be turning to the assigned heading.

I could be completely wrong though...that's just what I always thought.

 

[jhugz]

You DO NOT have to fly an ODP if there is no DP. They are not required even though you would be an idiot not to fly them in a unfamiliar environment or even a familiar one for that matter.

Example:

Cirrus 874T you are cleared to the Martin State Airport via upon entering controlled airspace proceed direct the Westminster VOR V256 Baltimore Direct. Climb and maintain 3 thousand expect 5 thousand one zero minutes after departure, departure freq is 125.525, squawk 3031.

Normal clearance out of FDK. Now by the clearance they want you to turn towards the EMI VOR at 700 AGL which is where the class G ends and E starts. However most of our runways ODP's are climb runway heading up to 2000 ft.

This is usually my initial call to departure:

Potomac Depature Good Morning Cirrus 874T out of One thousand 600 hundred for three thousand runway heading via the ODP then direct EMI.

 

[tgrayson]

I always thought that a SID had priority over an ODP (if assigned the SID) since the SID had obstacle clearance built into the procedure.

It does:

AIM
5-2-8. Instrument Departure Procedures

(DP) - Obstacle Departure Procedures
(ODP) and Standard Instrument Departures​

(SID)

[....]

ODPs are recommended for obstruction clearance and may be flown without ATC clearance unless an alternate departure procedure (SID or radar vector) has been specifically assigned by ATC.​

 

[drunkenbeagle]

ODPs are recommended for obstruction clearance and may be flown without ATC clearance unless an alternate departure procedure (SID or radar vector) has been specifically assigned by ATC.​

Doesn't that still assume you will be 35' over the threshold and 400' on the extended centerline before any turn?

 

[subpilot]

good thread. This is always an area of misunderstanding. Glad to see the mud cleared up a bit.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

good thread. This is always an area of misunderstanding. Glad to see the mud cleared up a bit.

I think I understand it even less now :rotfl:

The original question was at an uncontrolled field, how to assure terrain separation. I don't think the untowered field would have a SID, so it would be A) Fly the ODP if published or B) Fly 200'/NM gradient after 400' AGL on runway heading

 

[subpilot]

So if you are issued a SID then that supercedes the ODP. Now the question on my mind is this:
Can ATC assign you a SID from an uncontrolled field? I am sure a RV SID is off the table since you would not have comms on initial departure but what about PILOT/NAV SIDs?

 

[ppragman]

You DO NOT have to fly an ODP if there is no DP. They are not required even though you would be an idiot not to fly them in a unfamiliar environment or even a familiar one for that matter.

Example:

Cirrus 874T you are cleared to the Martin State Airport via upon entering controlled airspace proceed direct the Westminster VOR V256 Baltimore Direct. Climb and maintain 3 thousand expect 5 thousand one zero minutes after departure, departure freq is 125.525, squawk 3031.

Normal clearance out of FDK. Now by the clearance they want you to turn towards the EMI VOR at 700 AGL which is where the class G ends and E starts. However most of our runways ODP's are climb runway heading up to 2000 ft.

This is usually my initial call to departure:

Potomac Depature Good Morning Cirrus 874T out of One thousand 600 hundred for three thousand runway heading via the ODP then direct EMI.

How so? If you can maintain terrain obstruction clearance to the required levels, you're equipped with something to tell if you're going to hit something (TAWS) and you're not going to do anything unsafe, how would you be an idiot?

 

[gne in prog]

How so? If you can maintain terrain obstruction clearance to the required levels, you're equipped with something to tell if you're going to hit something (TAWS) and you're not going to do anything unsafe, how would you be an idiot?

imc, bad idea, taws or no taws. vmc, where you can see and avoid, different story.

 

[jhugz]

How so? If you can maintain terrain obstruction clearance to the required levels, you're equipped with something to tell if you're going to hit something (TAWS) and you're not going to do anything unsafe, how would you be an idiot?

AC

(1) Limitations. The following instructions should be included in the Limitations Section of all AFM or AFMS:

(a) Navigation must not be predicated upon the use of the TAWS.

NOTE: The terrain display is intended to serve as a situational awareness tool only. It may not provide either the accuracy or fidelity, or both, on which to solely base decisions and plan maneuvers to avoid terrain or obstacles.