DeltaWest - Flt 188

You will NEVER hear the CVR.

Only transcripts of the CVR.

Also, the FAA is skirting a thin line here. This is an open NTSB investigation and they should be the ones putting it on the public docket before the FAA is trying to get a leg up on this one. The problem is the NTSB can't really tell the FAA to stop.
 
The FAA needs to lose the ego and let the NTSB conduct its investigation. I am so sick of the FAA allowing the USA TODAY to draw conclusions about subjects journalism majors can't comprehend.
 
Seggy said:
You will NEVER hear the CVR.

Only transcripts of the CVR.

Also, the FAA is skirting a thin line here. This is an open NTSB investigation and they should be the ones putting it on the public docket before the FAA is trying to get a leg up on this one. The problem is the NTSB can't really tell the FAA to stop.
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That's what I meant, transcripts not audio.
 
ILSstud said:
That's what I meant, transcripts not audio.
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There is audio listed but it is just the communication between ATC and the A/C but like Seggy mentioned the CVR is not in there and won't be.
 
C150J said:
The FAA needs to lose the ego and let the NTSB conduct its investigation. I am so sick of the FAA allowing the USA TODAY to draw conclusions about subjects journalism majors can't comprehend.
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How is the FAA showing an ego here? All they have done is released transcripts of the communication between ATC and the a/c. How is the FAA allowing the USA Today (or any paper for that matter) to draw conclusions? It is public information and people (media) can do with it whatever they choose. There are obviously people that don't agree with it, but it is what it is..Public information and right or wrong, the public has a right to it. Also, how does the fact that this information is out matter, does it impact the ability of the NTSB to do their investigation? It's not a jury trial where jurors may be influenced by reading the transcripts.

I will defer to Mark on what he thinks the FAA should or shouldn't be doing, but as he mentioned, like it or not, there is not much the NTSB can do about it.
 
Jep,

The ego C150J is talking about is that the NTSB is out there to make safety recommendations to IMPROVE Air Safety after incidents to prevent them from happening again. Yes, even though this is public, the FAA's mission statement isn't to release information concerning an incident or accident. That is the job of the NTSB. The process MUST be followed. If it is NOT followed, then we do nothing but feed the 24 hour news cycles. It is clear that the FAA is trying to stay ahead of the NTSB with this.

The FAA should just shut up and say they defer the incident investigation to the NTSB and their processes.
 
JEP,

also one thing that is being talked about behind the scenes is the FAA dropping the ball yet again in failing to notify NORAD. They are terrified about what's coming down the pipe about this. Referencing that, they are deliberetly diverting attention away from that by creating a media frenzy. Heads are going to roll at the FAA forthis and they're just trying to confuse the public on the real problem.
 
mrivc211 said:
JEP,

also one thing that is being talked about behind the scenes is the FAA dropping the ball yet again in failing to notify NORAD. They are terrified about what's coming down the pipe about this. Referencing that, they are deliberetly diverting attention away from that by creating a media frenzy. Heads are going to roll at the FAA forthis and they're just trying to confuse the public on the real problem.
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Now that indeed makes a little more sense. Given the concerns about wayward a/c I could not understand why it took so long and how come the planes were not up intercepting...

Do you find that some see this 'quick release' of information as a deterrent to good CRM? I could understand how some would be reluctant about what is/isn't said knowing that it could be plastered for the world to see.
 
C150J said:
The FAA needs to lose the ego and let the NTSB conduct its investigation. I am so sick of the FAA allowing the USA TODAY to draw conclusions about subjects journalism majors can't comprehend.
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Amen to that. Journalists are people who want to make a difference in a world, they do not comprehend.
 
From an investigative standpoint, this is poor etiquette. I investigate incidents/pilot deviations at my operation, and can't tell you how annoying it is for information to be leaked before a thorough report of investigation is published. Usually, the leaked information is one-sided and an effort to divert attention (like Mrivc mentioned). Most critically, such leaks cloud the eventual analysis, much like swelling around a broken bone.

It is much more PROFESSIONAL for the Government to come at this from one, unified, well-defined direction. Jep, I'm all for transparency, believe me. Selectively releasing information to the media is not transparent, and only leads to more poorly written news pieces that make false assumptions.
 
JEP said:
How is the FAA showing an ego here? All they have done is released transcripts of the communication between ATC and the a/c. How is the FAA allowing the USA Today (or any paper for that matter) to draw conclusions? It is public information and people (media) can do with it whatever they choose. There are obviously people that don't agree with it, but it is what it is..Public information and right or wrong, the public has a right to it. Also, how does the fact that this information is out matter, does it impact the ability of the NTSB to do their investigation? It's not a jury trial where jurors may be influenced by reading the transcripts.

I will defer to Mark on what he thinks the FAA should or shouldn't be doing, but as he mentioned, like it or not, there is not much the NTSB can do about it.
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There were ASAP reports filed on this incident. The ASAP MOUs are clear that all information in ASAP is to be kept confidential unless the ERC denies the ASAP submission. That's not what's happened here. This whole thing has been a complete bastardization of the ASAP process, which is supposed to be sacred.
 
This was probably a Freedom of Information Act document release there is no secrecy in the ATC transcripts so investigation notwithstanding the FAA probably had 400 FOIA requests on their desk day 1 and by law they had to release those within a certain timeframe.
 
I just ran across some comments from a prominent NTSB investigator. He is not directly involved in this investigation, but he is one of the most experienced people on their staff, and is a person that I respect and trust. I understand that he is coming from a different perspective than we do as pilots so I take his comments with at least a small grain of salt, but I think this deserves consideration:

poster1 said:
As you know I'm a long time fan of the NTSB, but I hope in this case they don't accidentally stop some really important voluntary safety programs such as ASAP and FOQA.
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poster2 said:
Given the nature of the incident, it's being handled pretty much like any other. Pertinent factual data is frequently released early in investigations. In this case, the most pertinent factual data available is the crew's explanation of what happened. NTSB interview summaries are always part of the public accident docket. I don't see much reason to sit on them in this case. I keep hearing that ASAP/FOQA stuff, but those processes are entirely separate from NTSB investigations, and as far as I know, none of the information used in this came from ASAP.
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Always good to hear different perspectives on hot topics.
 
Steve,

Yes, the ASAP/FOQA agreements are seperate from the NTSB processes. However, in order for them to properly work the information CAN NOT be leaked to the press. Pilots will not trust and follow these programs when the information from them is plastered over page one of The Wall Street Journal.

Also, the ASAP report WAS leaked to the press by the FAA.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
There were ASAP reports filed on this incident. The ASAP MOUs are clear that all information in ASAP is to be kept confidential unless the ERC denies the ASAP submission. That's not what's happened here. This whole thing has been a complete bastardization of the ASAP process, which is supposed to be sacred.
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While I agree that the FAA has totally fubar'd this whole situation, NWA188 has been excluded from ASAP due to admitted intentional violation of SOP's.
 
...and once you file an ASAP (as sole source), that is the last you should ever speak about the incident. If your CP, the media, your priest (well, that would be a privileged communication) asks what happened, your response would be, "I filed an ASAP." ...end of discussion;)
 
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